Repaired frizzen doen't spark

[oldarmy]

A old friend welded my broken frizzen together and while it's not pretty.
it is in one piece and solid. He got the angle correct,
I had to polish the face some to smooth it out, and now it while it is nice and shinny it will not spark.
I am not suprised that this happened, when he welded it, I am sure it took the temper out of the matal. I know the frizzens are heat treated to make them hard
How do I re-heat/ heat treat it to get back the temper?
Thanks as always.

 

[Zonie]

Because we don't know what kind of steel it is made from I would suggest trying the Oil Quench method first.

To do this, you will need a method of bringing the frizzen up to a bright red/yellow heat. (Don't let it get into the bright yellow heat range because that can alter it's composition.) One propane torch might work but two are better. If you can't get two, you can make a charcoal fire. When the charcoal is totally lit, put the frizzen into it between several lumps. Get an electric fan and direct its blast at the charcoal. When the frizzen is bright red/yellow colored, pull it out of the fire and rapidly dump it into a pan of motor oil. You must work fast! You don't want it to cool while it's being moved to the quench.
When it's cooled, try to file the edge of the frizzen. If you can't file it more than making a bright spot, the hard part is done.

If the file cuts the material freely, it is a water hardening material.

Repeat the heating process and dump it into a pan of water.
This time, the file should only make a shiny spot on it (unless it is low carbon steel which had been case hardened).

If it was low carbon steel you should case harden it using Kasenet.

Assuming it hardened with one of the above processes, lightly sand the black crud off of it and polish it up a bit.
When it's bright, use one propane torch set as low as it will go and begain gently heating the lower leg of the frizzen.
You want to especially heat the area where the screw goes thru it but try to maintain a fairly even heat across the bottom including the corner where the frizzen goes up.

This heating will turn the metal yellow, brown, purple and blue, in that order. When it gets to the blue color dump the frizzen into a pan of oil and let it cool.
It is now hardened and tempered and should be ready for use.

 

[Venatic]

The weld filler material is probably not going to harden. Filler materials are generally of a composition that have low hardenability in order to keep them from being brittle and are not meant to be heat treated. If the filler material is in the area where the flint strikes you probably have a frizzen that will never work well.

V

 

This happened to me about eight years ago, I spent weeks trying to get a spark, then I spent $10 and bought a new one, worked like a charm. :shake:


TheGunCellar

 

[Halftail]

Thegunceller,
I agree!Seems to me that would be a far easier fix. :imo:

 

[Tumblernotch]

If your frizzen happens to be on a Siler lock, take a metal lid and put about 1/2" of clean sand in it. Lay the frizzen on this and place the lid on your kitchen stove burner or a Coleman stove and turn the heat on high. Make sure the frizzen is clean and bright. Watch for a color change and when it reaches a light straw, take it off the fire and allow to air cool. Do not quench!

I'm not sure about the other lock makers, but this is how Bud Siler tempered his frizzens and it works on the cast steels used in his frizzens. In fact, you use the same process for all the parts on his lock kits, you just draw to different colors on the different parts. Before you do this though, you may want to normalize the stresses in the frizzen set up by being welded. Heat to a bright cherry red and allow to air cool. Then go through the process described above.
:results: :m2c:

Oh, and by the way, don't polish the face too bright. If it's too slick the flint won't bite enough to scrape those tiny shavings off and those are what make the sparks.
::

 

[oldarmy]

I appricate the information.
I am going to work on it, just because I would like to know if I can get it will work.
I called up L&R it's one of their locks- it's for my bedford kit- and they said they would fix it for free under the warrentee.
I was willing to pay for it, becase I did drop it.
I think that's great customer service.

 

[Tumblernotch]

That is great customer service. If it broke when you dropped it, I'd say it is cast. Since your buddy welded it together, I would recommend heating it to a bright cherry and letting it air cool first then heat it in sand like I described earlier. That should normalize the steel and take out the stresses set up when he welded it. Don't cover it up. Just lay it on about 1/2" of sand. If it is made of the same composition of cast steel as the Siler locks were, it should temper real good that way. Mine has been on my rifle since January 1991 and I've never had to do a thing to it. And there has been a BUNCH of shots fired with it.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I can't guarantee it, but the process has worked well for me. Might as well try it, ya got nuthin' to lose!
:thumbsup:

 

[oldarmy]

Thanks,
By friend is going to use our shop welder--don't tell-- and heat it red hot, then I can bake in the evening.
i sent the lock back to L&R yesterday, I sure hope it comes home soon. I have been working on this kit for a couple of months and want to shoot it so bad I can spit

 

[Tumblernotch]

I know that feelin'! I've been tryin' to get out in the shop and work on one of my rifles and it seems every time I start, something else comes up that just has to be done. Maybe, just maybe, I'll do a little bit tonight or tomorrow. I just finished installing a new bathroom sink and was taking a breather and thought I would get on here a few minutes. After supper, maybe I can at least start setting up to get something started. Have a good one! :front:

 

[LRB]

Kanawharanger neglected to tell you to harden it first, and if you want the best temper, put it in your oven for one hour at 375o. This is Jim Chambers reccomended temperature. Also, that it broke when dropped would have nothing to do with it being cast. They all are today. Use an oven thermometer to be sure of your temper heat.

 

[oldarmy]

got it,
I had no idea that 18th century technology was so complicated.
I would be suprised if many non flintlock shooters realized how complicated a lock is.
Thanks.
If-no when- I get it to work again I will let the forum know.
The person that is helping me with this is an inline hunter and just can't understand why any one would want such " a piece of junk"
I just smile and say "they are so cool"

 

[Zonie]

Wick is correct. If you heat the frizzen to red heat and let it air cool, you will stress relieve the weld zone, but you will also end up with a part that is "dead soft" (or annealed).

It has to be hardened as I suggested, then tempered.
If you use the 350 F degree temperature for tempering, you will end up with a very hard frizzen. I'm not saying it won't work well but 350 degrees F is 80 degrees cooler than the "yellow" temperature (430 degrees F) I mentioned above.

The "yellow" temper is used for things like scrapers, drill bits, taps, and reamers.

I still feel that somewhere between "Brown" (500 degrees F) (Axes, wood chisels, drift punches), "Purple (540 degrees F) (cold chisels, center punches, rivet sets) and blue (570 degrees F) (screwdrivers, springs, picks) will give good sparks and be flexable enough that it won't break from the impact of the flint hitting it.

:imo:

 

[Tumblernotch]

:redface: Yikes, I did forget to tell him to harden first. :redface:

I heat mine to a medium cherry red and quench in motor oil. After cooling, it has to be cleaned real good because it will be Black.

The "Straw" temper I speak of is leaning towards a dark gold in color, a little before brown. I tried to find my paper that has the figures that Bud Siler recommended for his locks but can't find it. I'll look again after while. But anyhow, dark straw is what he recommended. Mine has done quite well over the years.

I temper my sear and tumbler at a purplish blue, near a spring temper, but just a tad harder to keep the nose of the sear and the notches of the tumbler well defined. ::

 

[LSU TIGER]

Depending on the metal, a quench in oil will not harden it. You must use water! The replacment frizzens from Track for reconversion require water. After that, use Kasinite as usual and again quench in water.

 

[Randy]

If broken through the face (which hardly ever happens) the weld material will not harden very well even with kasenit. You could reface the frizzen by shaping a piece of hacksaw blade to the face and soldering it on. no other hardening is then needed since the soldering should be done at around 400 deg., wich will not affect the piece you have attached. Did this once to a cheap frizen (not broken) and it sparked pretty well. I've seen this process described in Muzleblasts magazine and other places described as resoleing the frizzen. It looks a bit rough after doing but it will spark and could be ground and polished to look better. I used an old sawzall blade that was wide enough to cover the whole frizzen face but it wouldn't have to. You just need a strip down the middle for the flint to scrape against.

 

[LRB]

Most of the frizzens by American makers are 1095 steel, which is classed as water hardening, but on small delicate parts, it can crack. with 1095, it is best to try oil first. The oil should be cut with kerosene at about 25%, or use transmission fluid.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yes, some kinds do require water. Some work better with brine too. I've found that some cast steels will crack even in brine. I'm not sure what composition of steel was used in the old Siler locks, but it was recommended that oil be used, either motor oil or mineral oil could be used for hardening. Some steels temper well in a lead bath, but I've never gone to that trouble.

I made a knife once out of file steel and found that I didn't have any oil at hand. Rather than go buy some (I was in a hurry), I made up a strong brine quench, crossed my fingers and prayed. Needless to say, it cracked. The blade was needed the next day, so I stayed up late forging one from a star drill which actually made a nicer blade and I could harden it in brine. By the way, they also make nice strikers and screwdrivers.

I'm hoping to find the time this winter to forge a complete lock. I've made a few parts for repairs, but never the whole thing. Should be interesting.
:thumbsup:

 

[oldarmy]

I have not done the final tempering yet.
the broken frizzen was heated cherry red and quenched-I like that word- in a special oil that our plant's machinest had. He tested the part with a file and thought it was pretty hard. It turned black as coal.
There are a number of different ideas about how to temper it. I thought I would heat it just to blue and oil quench it.
I will let you know how it turns out and thanks once again for the help.

 

[rich pierce]

Tempering to blue is way too soft for the face. You want light straw for the face and purple for the "tit" that rides on the frizzen and around the axle for the pivot. A blue-tempered frizzen will cut with a file and won't spark.