"Restoring" a basket case original.

[Uncle Miltie]

There are right and wrong ways to do these types of things. What we see here is the wrong way. Views on preserving originals has radically changed since hacker Martin's day. These days we stabilize with out doing any harm. Did you really need a gun to shoot so bad you had to destroy this one?
The proper way would have been to glue wood into the places that need repair. It can be done invisibly, I have done it many times
There was no reason to change out the breech plug with this long replacement. Especially using gobs of black accraglass. Finding another old percussion lock that fit the mortise correctly would have been a good idea, or leave the one on it that is already there chances are it was put there during the rifles actual working life. I don't have any words for globing a new flintlock in with black accraglass that's a new one on me.
You haters just keep hating on me, I'm used to it.

I concur: rifle was in better shape than many I've seen and with a proper rehab job would still be "there" and a shooter as well.

 

[user 31232]

I checked back to see if Meriwether had fulfilled my request to close my account and in the meantime got some photos in the daylight. Since he has not yet, might as well post them for further ridicule before I go.

Genuine, homemade ferric nitrate stain, blushed with a non-correct electric heat gun, two coats of drying oils. Still needs some screw heads shaped and darkened, all the brass nails cleaned up and installed, some patina put on the brass in the spots where I had to remove it, and some darkening done to the appropriate areas and especially to blend the Acra-Glas fill into the wood around the lock plate, barrel breech, and front bit of the tang.

Just to tee-off the purists (not really, but it no doubt will) I coned the muzzle with a boring bar with the bore center itself indicated true on both ends via 4-jaw chuck and outboard spider (it was pretty deeply and deliberately if not very accurately coned to begin with) and installed a stainless-steel TH liner....with a screwdriver slot in it.

I know the browning touch up on the top and right barrel flat and tang sucks because it's way too smooth and light so I will redo it with LMF rust-pit-in-a-bottle so it woll better match the 200 years of crusty rust on the rest of the barrel that I was actually quite careful to preserve.
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Great job !

 

[IanH]

There are right and wrong ways to do these types of things. What we see here is the wrong way. Views on preserving originals has radically changed since hacker Martin's day. These days we stabilize with out doing any harm. Did you really need a gun to shoot so bad you had to destroy this one?
The proper way would have been to glue wood into the places that need repair. It can be done invisibly, I have done it many times
There was no reason to change out the breech plug with this long replacement. Especially using gobs of black accraglass. Finding another old percussion lock that fit the mortise correctly would have been a good idea, or leave the one on it that is already there chances are it was put there during the rifles actual working life. I don't have any words for globing a new flintlock in with black accraglass that's a new one on me.
You haters just keep hating on me, I'm used to it.

Alright, you roped me back in. I know better than to argue with people but your reading comprehension is severely handicapped by your prejudice.

As I explained previously, the it had two coats of finish, the original mostly gone and sanded off along with some of the contours, and the coat of tinted varnish sloppily applied to cover up the mess and attempt to even the color. You were wrong saying it was the original finish and ignored what I wrote in favor of your own fabricated assessment that supported your personal tirade.

Now you suggest I should have, as one option, kept the lock that was on it. The part where I wrote about the half **** notch being destroyed because it has double-set triggers and no fly must have gone completely "over your head", why would you even suggest that I could have used this lock knowing how unsafe it would be? Did you not recognize it as a Riddle lock?

I put the long tang on it because the grain in the wrist is a snap in two waiting to happen, and the original trigger plate architecture and location easily supported the addition of tang bolt holes....and the two wood screws in the tang were doing nothing but splitting the stock. The trigger assembly required so much wood to be hollowed out of the wrist that drilling and hiding a reinforcement rod in there wasn't practical. Not necessary for a wallhanger but neither am I interested in wallhangers that have already been bubba'd.

If you wish to be useful and constructive,, which I doubt you do, would you pleas ask some of your Ohio valley collector/expert friends if they could give me any further insight into this rifle's origins?

 

[MAC1967]

I'm surprised that the original builder gutted so much out for the lock. There's nothing there but the ledge for the plate. I guess it works, and it's easier than actual lock part inletting, but it surprises me. I know they built them for function and probably quickly for sale, but I've not seen one that barren before. You did a great job on this BTW.

 

[IanH]

Most original lock inlets were gutted from what I read. Time was money then as now, and a great number of rifles were built without intention of them lasting generations. In addition, this rifle has worn many locks and each required more room in different areas.

One thing I do not know, but have my suspicions, is what would an 1850's gunsmith have done to it if I had taken it to him in the condition I found it this year and asked him to make it a shooter? Aside from grafting in wood, or much more likely outright restocking the thing instead of using epoxy, would it have been all that different?

 

[Edm]

Since I know that this topic is staying alive just because everyone is waiting on my input….

I love original guns, radios etc. if I’m looking for a old SxS shotgun, I will pass if it has an added recoil pad or has been refinished. That said…I also just redid the awful stock on an old shotgun and it looks MUCH better.

If I am trying to restore something, I do try to use original parts etc. as for methods, I will use some modern tools and methods if I want. I am not planning on selling anything so if it’s a piece of junk it’s my piece of junk.

That is your rifle. If you are happy then good. It looks nice and shoots well. I have no reason to believe that you are looking to go buy old rifles and do this to them all and then sell them. Again that would be your choice, but there are a limited number of old guns and some people like to keep them as original as possible. I would hope people wouldn’t change them and ruin the authenticity of them just to do it.

I don’t think that’s what you did. In my mind, you were either going to leave it untouched in a closet for years and someday it would get sold to a pawn shop and lost to the world, or you would do what you did to make it shootable.

Stick around here. It’s a good site.

 

[nit wit]

If you don't ave any good comments to make, walk on by. When a person has a firearm they can do with it what they like. None of our business. Rude comments will not be tolerated no matter how smart you are!
Nit Wit

 

[reddogge]

If anyone loves original rifles, M/L, military, classic .22s, Winchesters, it's me. But this rifle had neither original finish nor original lock. Some wood butcher took care of that many moons ago. The OP did a good job on it and has a shootable rifle. If it were mine I probably would have left it percussion with a new lock and maybe scarfed wood into the lock area and re-inlet the new lock and I would have used some bone black in the finish to give it some aged look. Good job though on an ugly rifle.

 

[IanH]

If anyone loves original rifles, M/L, military, classic .22s, Winchesters, it's me. But this rifle had neither original finish nor original lock. Some wood butcher took care of that many moons ago. The OP did a good job on it and has a shootable rifle. If it were mine I probably would have left it percussion with a new lock and maybe scarfed wood into the lock area and re-inlet the new lock and I would have used some bone black in the finish to give it some aged look. Good job though on an ugly rifle.

I mentioned earlier that I will be putting some black back in the appropriate areas and will try to blend the black epoxy around the lock and tang so it is less visible. Also will age the brass and rebrown the tang with a more aggressive chemical so it is as crusty as the barrel. I knew long ago that scabbing in new wood is the proper way to do that repair and appreciate it being mentioned (like by yourself and the very first person who replied also politely suggested) since you don'tknow me yet, but while I have quite a hoard of fancy hardwood scraps, I have no finely-striped maple and further not THAT much talent to attempt an actual restoration. That sort of thing is for other folks. As I wrote before, I'm taking the easy way out here and I don't think the remains of the stock are worth any more than that. I DO have a reasonable amount of skill and experience working with Acra-Glas and know what it can and cannot do. This was a good application for it and I stand by what I did for the reasons I have repeated in many different ways.

I have decided to stay as I have a lot to share and also a lot to learn. I am not a collector or an especially obsessive student of history as some are (and I am glad for you who are), or I would have joined ALR instead of this board. I do many unconventional things some of you may be find entertaining, and as an example I may post a thread detailing the trade gun I made. Some of you will have a stroke when see how I made the trigger plate and trigger

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[appalichian hunter]

What's the old saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[IanH]

Duplicate post, sorry.

 

[IanH]

One more thing, since we're on the subject, someone gave me another fine old original to use for a tomato stake and kindling (a joke) and unless someone wants to identify it and pay only freight to have it be in their collection (not kidding), it might actually become kindling and maybe a jack handle. It is UNMOLESTED save for someone putting a little liquid epoxy in the bottom of the lock mortice and some duct tape residue on the forestock.

It was once .36-caliber but most of the rifling is gone. It was left loaded at some point and is severely pitted in front of the threads, as in giant pockets of metal missing. I think it's walnut, very plain. Lots of brass inlays, very crude. Steel butt plate. Missing most of the furniture and tang.

I wouldn't want to trash a piece of history or anything (that was sarcasm), so if you want it before I do, message me (seriously. And it is far worse than it looks in the pictures).

 

[64Springer]

^^^In all seriousness, that is very generous of you.^^^

Even if the stock is trashed beyond repair, the barrel is probably salvageable.

Love the drop on that stock.

 

[bud in pa]

Congratulations on your work on that old rifle. You bought it and made it what you wanted it to be. I wouldn't be bothered by those who don't like what you did. You took a piece of junk and made it useable again.

 

[IanH]

^^^In all seriousness, that is very generous of you.^^^

Even if the stock is trashed beyond repair, the barrel is probably salvageable.

Love the drop on that stock.

The barrel is straight and solid aside from the first couple of inches from the breech end and I think it could easily be drilled and rifled to .40 caliber.

If you are sincerely interested or know anyone who is and they are willing to pay freight expenses, AND they can be trusted to actually do something proper with it, it is up for grabs. I already examined it closely a long time ago and didn't find anythingbof interest but will look again.

I should have posted this in the thread that our sulking friend created to vent his self-inflicted sorrows at my expense and that yourself and others so gleefully commiserated, but I'm sure it will be seen.

 

[IanH]

Congratulations on your work on that old rifle. You bought it and made it what you wanted it to be. I wouldn't be bothered by those who don't like what you did. You took a piece of junk and made it useable again.

Thank you. It was actually destined to be a prop in the community theater but I intervened in the donation and got it for free.

I have two other rifles which are a mystery and I will post questions about. I haven't disturbed one of them other than lightly clean and oil it as it is original and in very good shape though probably shouldn't be shot on account of doing so messing with the patina. The other one appears to have been made from original parts strictly as a wall hanger but restocked and rebreeched and has a couple of puzzling and awful modifications, for example the tenons were filed off the barrel and it is attached with scope base screws through the ramrod channel. It has the remains of a signature on the top flat and I hope someone can identify it. It is a great shooter and I have enjoyed it a lot.

 

[PathfinderNC]

If you don't ave any good comments to make, walk on by. When a person has a firearm they can do with it what they like. None of our business. Rude comments will not be tolerated no matter how smart you are!
Nit Wit

Not to go off on a tangent on the gentleman’s thread ( and a good debated conversation) I hope this gets some good clarification as to what “good comments” are! Because if stating an opinion that might hurt someone’s sensitivities but made in a spirit of honesty is going to be considered a “bad comment” we are in for a hot mess.

 

[IanH]

It has nothing to do with opinions, but has everything to do with being an unecessarily condescending prick. Make sense?

Well, maybe it does have to do with opinions. Here's mine: the points which were brought up to me, though some of them misplaced due an overestimation of the actual condition of the gun I was working with, were very good and absolutely should have made. The WAY they were made was not. No, I'm not a thin-skinned snowflake, but neither will I tolerate being openly spit on and I don't believe you would, either.

I'm still waiting for your reply about value, anyone's reply about wanting the antique stock and barrel I offered, and replies from any Ohio rifle experts who are willing to share anything they may know about the provenance of the rifle that has caused so much grief this week.

 

[appalichian hunter]

I like your style TEXAN, I hunt Wyoming a lot and the lady rancher we hunt on is just like you I believe, straight shooter takes no lip and will tell you where the bus stops, but not holier than thou, and once you make friends with her it for a lifetime, my kind of folks.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

So now I'm a "condesending prick?" If that isn't a direct attack I don't know what is. It wasn't me who started the name calling.