restoring a cam on an 1860 hammer

[M. De Land]

your work on this Centaur would pique interest on the FROCs website

What is FROCs web site ?

 

[hrt4me]

What is FROCs web site ?

https://wp.1960nma.org/

 

[M. De Land]

https://wp.1960nma.org/

I'm about ready to heat treat the wedge in the next day or two and will show some shots of how that happens. O-1 is a fairly simple process but A-2 which this wedge is made of is a bit more complicated and may be of interest to folks who will be using it.
I also think I will make a new trigger/bolt spring of the flat spring stock I prefer to use for this purpose on these guns.
I do use "piano wire" quite a bit for trigger springs on single shot rifles fairly often .

 

[William P Sepessy]

Again, thank you M. De Land for this on-going report. I have been following it with interest.

 

[M. De Land]

Again, thank you M. De Land for this on-going report. I have been following it with interest.

I finally got back to this revolver build and it's time to heat treat the wedge after a bit of final fitting.
1. The first thing was to check and see if the 5 degree angle was maintained in the construction and fitting.
2. The second was to degrease in acetone and dry.
3. The wedge is wrapped in a bit of brown paper bag before the tool wrap steel. The paper burns up and the ash seals any possibility of air getting to the wedge and scaling the surface. "Old Indian trick".
4. The oven is programmed for a two segment heat treat. It is brought up to 1450 degrees F. gradually and held there for 30 min. then the program elevates the temperature to 1750 F for an additional 45 minutes then turns itself off.
5. At the end of the cycle the wedge is removed and left inside the tool wrap to air quench on top of a fire brick. When it stops glowing and darkens it won't scale any more and it's time to peel off the tool wrap with forceps and let it cool to room temp.
6 I'll need to look up the temper draw temperature which is the final step.
This is my case coloring oven and way to large for this little project but the digital programing is so precise and automatic I don't use my smaller ovens for A-2 heat treating.

 

[M. De Land]

I finally got back to this revolver build and it's time to heat treat the wedge after a bit of final fitting.
1. The first thing was to check and see if the 5 degree angle was maintained in the construction and fitting.
2. The second was to degrease in acetone and dry.
3. The wedge is wrapped in a bit of brown paper bag before the tool wrap steel. The paper burns up and the ash seals any possibility of air getting to the wedge and scaling the surface. "Old Indian trick".
4. The oven is programmed for a two segment heat treat. It is brought up to 1450 degrees F. gradually and held there for 30 min. then the program elevates the temperature to 1750 F for an additional 45 minutes then turns itself off.
5. At the end of the cycle the wedge is removed and left inside the tool wrap to air quench on top of a fire brick. When it stops glowing and darkens it won't scale any more and it's time to peel off the tool wrap with forceps and let it cool to room temp.
6 I'll need to look up the temper draw temperature which is the final step.
This is my case coloring oven and way to large for this little project but the digital programing is so precise and automatic I don't use my smaller ovens for A-2 heat treating.

Ok ,19 minutes left in stage 1 at 1450 F plus or minus 3 degrees.
She's ramping up to 1750 after stage one has completed.
The temper draw is from 350F for a Rockwell C scale of 62 to 1000 F for a Rockwell of 56. I'm thinking the 56 will be plenty hard for a wedge.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Ok ,19 minutes left in stage 1 at 1450 F plus or minus 3 degrees.
She's ramping up to 1750 after stage one has completed.
The temper draw is from 350F for a Rockwell C scale of 62 to 1000 F for a Rockwell of 56. I'm thinking the 56 will be plenty hard for a wedge.

My gosh m. De Land, after seeing your equipmnt I now feel as though im a certified "Bubba".

Lmao, When i hear guys on the forums talking about Bubba Tinkering with their gun and ruining it i will not instantly have a mental image of myself

 

[M. De Land]

My gosh m. De Land, after seeing your equipmnt I now feel as though im a certified "Bubba".

Lmao, When i hear guys on the forums talking about Bubba Tinkering with their gun and ruining it i will not instantly have a mental image of myself

Oh, believe me, one can still Bubba up stuff with good equipment ! I'm living proof of that fact but if yah ain't making mistakes on occasion then your not doing anything.

 

[M. De Land]

Ok ,19 minutes left in stage 1 at 1450 F plus or minus 3 degrees.
She's ramping up to 1750 after stage one has completed.
The temper draw is from 350F for a Rockwell C scale of 62 to 1000 F for a Rockwell of 56. I'm thinking the 56 will be plenty hard for a wedge.

Ok, the wedge has the tempered drawn at 700 F for about 45 minutes and came out with a nice heat blue color to it. I did note just a bit of scale on it apparently I need another wrap of brown paper inside the tool wrap for additional ash protection but it fits and will work very well.
I also got a new bolt/trigger spring made that I feel is unsurpassed for quality and longevity but that's just my opinion. The tips of the spring fingers that contact the bolt and the trigger have a contour stoned into the ends for smooth operation.
The barrel cylinder gap is right at .0035 -.004 and pretty square to the barrel face which I tend to be pretty picky about .

The trigger bolt spring is about half the thickness of the original. It has to be drilled with carbide and shaped with a grinder. The dividing cut for the fingers is done with a dremel flat cut off disk set up in a small lathe, It took perhaps a half hour to complete.
Well she is about ready for the cone re-cut to 18 degrees and a lap job to get out the tight spot.
I don't think I'm going to put in a cap rake but will deburr the safety pin slot.

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, the wedge has the tempered drawn at 700 F for about 45 minutes and came out with a nice heat blue color to it. I did note just a bit of scale on it apparently I need another wrap of brown paper inside the tool wrap for additional ash protection but it fits and will work very well.
I also got a new bolt/trigger spring made that I feel is unsurpassed for quality and longevity but that's just my opinion. The tips of the spring fingers that contact the bolt and the trigger have a contour stoned into the ends for smooth operation.
The barrel cylinder gap is right at .0035 -.004 and pretty square to the barrel face which I tend to be pretty picky about .

The trigger bolt spring is about half the thickness of the original. It has to be drilled with carbide and shaped with a grinder. The dividing cut for the fingers is done with a dremel flat cut off disk set up in a small lathe, It took perhaps a half hour to complete.
Well she is about ready for the cone re-cut to 18 degrees and a lap job to get out the tight spot.
I don't think I'm going to put in a cap rake but will deburr the safety pin slot.

I got to the forcing cone work tonight , re-cut and lapped to 18 degrees. The cone like the rest of the gun looks like it was cut on third shift Friday night but I cleaned it up the best I could to where I think it will work.
I hope to get to the barrel lap tomorrow and be done with this project. When I get that tight spot lapped out she should shoot but time will tell. I may still have to change that front sight to make the gun usable for target work.
I was watching The Shamans Forge video with Blacky showing how he used a dollar bill for a feeler gauge to set barrel/cylinder gap and out of curiosity mic'd a dollar bill and it measured .004 so I thought that was rather interesting.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes!
I placed a .454 ball in the cone of the re-cut job and it fits pretty close to the depth I think is good for ball shooting.
Pictured is the gear to cone cut, lap and crown, centered to the bore. I like to use a drill motor to turn the shaft a steady RPM as it makes a smoother cut than I can with the T-handle by hand.

 

[M. De Land]

I got to the forcing cone work tonight , re-cut and lapped to 18 degrees. The cone like the rest of the gun looks like it was cut on third shift Friday night but I cleaned it up the best I could to where I think it will work.
I hope to get to the barrel lap tomorrow and be done with this project. When I get that tight spot lapped out she should shoot but time will tell. I may still have to change that front sight to make the gun usable for target work.
I was watching The Shamans Forge video with Blacky showing how he used a dollar bill for a feeler gauge to set barrel/cylinder gap and out of curiosity mic'd a dollar bill and it measured .004 so I thought that was rather interesting.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes!
I placed a .454 ball in the cone of the re-cut job and it fits pretty close to the depth I think is good for ball shooting.
Pictured is the gear to cone cut, lap and crown, centered to the bore. I like to use a drill motor to turn the shaft a steady RPM as it makes a smoother cut than I can with the T-handle by hand.

I forgot to mention that I did end fit the arbor with a disk shim and it was quite a simple operation. This arbor well had a perfectly flat bottom which I have not seen before. That I still had to use a shim disk to reach the well bottom was quite amazing considering the . 020 plus set back I had to take out to tighten up the barrel/cylinder gap.

 

[M. De Land]

I got to the forcing cone work tonight , re-cut and lapped to 18 degrees. The cone like the rest of the gun looks like it was cut on third shift Friday night but I cleaned it up the best I could to where I think it will work.
I hope to get to the barrel lap tomorrow and be done with this project. When I get that tight spot lapped out she should shoot but time will tell. I may still have to change that front sight to make the gun usable for target work.
I was watching The Shamans Forge video with Blacky showing how he used a dollar bill for a feeler gauge to set barrel/cylinder gap and out of curiosity mic'd a dollar bill and it measured .004 so I thought that was rather interesting.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes!
I placed a .454 ball in the cone of the re-cut job and it fits pretty close to the depth I think is good for ball shooting.
Pictured is the gear to cone cut, lap and crown, centered to the bore. I like to use a drill motor to turn the shaft a steady RPM as it makes a smoother cut than I can with the T-handle by hand.

While the lead pot is heating up I took a couple of shots in preparation of this lap job.
The first thing I did was drive a .45 cal. slug into the bore to measure the groove diameter of this seven groove barrel in the Powelly gauge I made up decades ago. It's very accurate and works equally well for odd or even groove barrels.
The equation that must be run with measured diameter input shown with the caliper, uses the width and V troth angle to accurately calculate the diameter of the slug which is indicating the groove diameter of the bore it is passed through.
The caliper reading is not accurate but is set up to show how it is used to get the diameter of the slug plus the gauge, to factor into the formula stamped into the Powelly face.
The Groove diameter of this barrel is .0078 included which means each groove is about .004 deep.
Lapping will take out a high spot but as far as metal removal of the whole bore were talking in ten thousands (.0001). It won't remove only the very shallowest of pitting but does smooth the edge of a pit so it usually won't hook lead especially when it gets some bullet grease and fouling in it.
I'll post another set of photos of the actual lap job later on which can get fairly technical.
Remember to click on the photo to enlarge if desired.

 

[Bad Karma]

I forgot to mention that I did end fit the arbor with a disk shim and it was quite a simple operation. This arbor well had a perfectly flat bottom which I have not seen before. That I still had to use a shim disk to reach the well bottom was quite amazing considering the . 020 plus set back I had to take out to tighten up the barrel/cylinder gap.

Excessive end shake is such a common problem with replicas. I have two guns that are very nice except for this and their just aren’t any smiths willing to do that work. If someone were to setup for this operation alone I’ll bet they could keep themselves in hamburgers and beans… maybe not steaks but…

 

[M. De Land]

Excessive end shake is such a common problem with replicas. I have two guns that are very nice except for this and their just aren’t any smiths willing to do that work. If someone were to setup for this operation alone I’ll bet they could keep themselves in hamburgers and beans… maybe not steaks but…

What do you consider is excessive ? I've heard lots of opinion on this and enjoy hearing/considering the various reasons for those.

 

[Bad Karma]

What do you consider is excessive ? I've heard lots of opinion on this and enjoy hearing/considering the various reasons for those.

I prefer a gap between .002-005” definitely on the tighter side being preferred. The issue becomes two fold with the larger gaps. Fouling is much more pronounced in those guns, and can tie them up, (Yes, even Colts) and then there is the lost velocity. An old friend used to set up service/target cartridge guns with .002” end shake and he claimed once that he was seeing 25 to 50 fps velocity lost for every .002” over .002”. when you’re starting with the relatively slow balls and bullets from a cap gun, I’m loathe to give up 50 or 100 fps here and there. A third issue comes into play when you recut the forcing cone. Between an often deeper cone and an excessive cylinder gap you’re beginning to create a tolerance stack which cannot bode well for accuracy and power from these guns.

 

[45D]

Excessive end shake is such a common problem with replicas. I have two guns that are very nice except for this and their just aren’t any smiths willing to do that work. If someone were to setup for this operation alone I’ll bet they could keep themselves in hamburgers and beans… maybe not steaks but…

Funny you say that, I do it several times a week ( unless I have some Remingtons or ROA's).

I prefer a gap between .002-005” definitely on the tighter side being preferred. The issue becomes two fold with the larger gaps. Fouling is much more pronounced in those guns, and can tie them up, (Yes, even Colts) and then there is the lost velocity. An old friend used to set up service/target cartridge guns with .002” end shake and he claimed once that he was seeing 25 to 50 fps velocity lost for every .002” over .002”. when you’re starting with the relatively slow balls and bullets from a cap gun, I’m loathe to give up 50 or 100 fps here and there. A third issue comes into play when you recut the forcing cone. Between an often deeper cone and an excessive cylinder gap you’re beginning to create a tolerance stack which cannot bode well for accuracy and power from these guns.

That's about right, I set them at .0025" - .003" for cap guns, .0015" - .002" for unmentionables using smokeless.

Endshake pretty much determines the "life" of the revolver. . . . especially "high power" target S.A.'s.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

While the lead pot is heating up I took a couple of shots in preparation of this lap job.
The first thing I did was drive a .45 cal. slug into the bore to measure the groove diameter of this seven groove barrel in the Powelly gauge I made up decades ago. It's very accurate and works equally well for odd or even groove barrels.
The equation that must be run with measured diameter input shown with the caliper, uses the width and V troth angle to accurately calculate the diameter of the slug which is indicating the groove diameter of the bore it is passed through.
The caliper reading is not accurate but is set up to show how it is used to get the diameter of the slug plus the gauge, to factor into the formula stamped into the Powelly face.
The Groove diameter of this barrel is .0078 included which means each groove is about .004 deep.
Lapping will take out a high spot but as far as metal removal of the whole bore were talking in ten thousands (.0001). It won't remove only the very shallowest of pitting but does smooth the edge of a pit so it usually won't hook lead especially when it gets some bullet grease and fouling in it.
I'll post another set of photos of the actual lap job later on which can get fairly technical.
Remember to click on the photo to enlarge if desired.

I'm waiting for the third lap to cool in the barrel and should be finished up before to long.
I forgot to tell the groove diameter which is .444 in this barrel. The chamber mouths are . 446 so except for a little radial lap to clean up the mouths we should be in pretty good shape.
I did note that the grooves are a bit deeper on one side of the bore than the other and these barrels looked buttoned to me which seems odd but I suppose a button can be ground out of spec just as a broach can. I used to have a Taurus revolver that had this very noticeable defect but seemed pretty accurate anyway. It bugged me so I finally sold the gun.
The laps are pure lead because it shrinks more than does lead alloy which is needed for lap compound clearance to keep it from sticking in the bore.
I started with 400 grit to get the lap moving then added 220 once it was freed up. I sure could feel the tight spot the plug gauges found near the breech.
I like to re-cast a new lap every 250 round trips (five hundred passes) in the bore and recharge the lap every 50 cycles.
Lapping is mostly done by feel and the trick is to work out the tight spots and blend them with the more open until you get the bore even or with a bit of choke toward the muzzle which is what I usually try to do.
I finish up with 400 grit which works out well.

 

[Bad Karma]

That pistol may have some collectors value, some people really go crazy over the Belgian Colts, but for me all the collectors value mean nothing if it’s not accurate... can’t wait to see the results.

 

[M. De Land]

I'm waiting for the third lap to cool in the barrel and should be finished up before to long.
I forgot to tell the groove diameter which is .444 in this barrel. The chamber mouths are . 446 so except for a little radial lap to clean up the mouths we should be in pretty good shape.
I did note that the grooves are a bit deeper on one side of the bore than the other and these barrels looked buttoned to me which seems odd but I suppose a button can be ground out of spec just as a broach can. I used to have a Taurus revolver that had this very noticeable defect but seemed pretty accurate anyway. It bugged me so I finally sold the gun.
The laps are pure lead because it shrinks more than does lead alloy which is needed for lap compound clearance to keep it from sticking in the bore.
I started with 400 grit to get the lap moving then added 220 once it was freed up. I sure could feel the tight spot the plug gauges found near the breech.
I like to re-cast a new lap every 250 round trips (five hundred passes) in the bore and recharge the lap every 50 cycles.
Lapping is mostly done by feel and the trick is to work out the tight spots and blend them with the more open until you get the bore even or with a bit of choke toward the muzzle which is what I usually try to do.
I finish up with 400 grit which works out well.

I think I'm done with the barrel lap as the .438 plug gauge will drop through of it's own weight from the muzzle but I can still feel the slightest snugging up as it goes through the high spot in front of the cone about an inch or so. Not sure it's worth another lap plug cast for removing less than a ten/thou or so. Boy that bore sure does shine like a new penny.
I always forget how much work lapping is as it feels like your arm is going to cramp up after a couple hundred cycles.
If my friend ever sells it the next owner will think Centaure's really are fit up well!

I don't know if it will shoot or not but I have given it every opportunity to . Actually it was more of a interesting challenge than anything else to see if a silk purse could be made out of a sows ear !

 

[Bad Karma]

Funny you say that, I do it several times a week ( unless I have some Remingtons or ROA's).



That's about right, I set them at .0025" - .003" for cap guns, .0015" - .002" for unmentionables using smokeless.

Endshake pretty much determines the "life" of the revolver. . . . especially "high power" target S.A.'s.

Mike

Mike, I’ll send you a PM… Thanks.