Revoling wheellock pistol

[Flint62Smoothie]

A Wheellock pistol with a 6-shot revolving cylinder, attributed to Paul Dubler, Germany, circa1600.

OaL: 27 in/68.5 cm
Barrel Length: 14 in/35.6 cm
Calibre: 0.3 in/7.62 mm
Weight: 3.6 lbs/1.6 kg

Housed in the Royal Armouries:
https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-40772

 

[rickystl]

A Wheellock pistol with a 6-shot revolving cylinder, attributed to Paul Dubler, Germany, circa1600.

OaL: 27 in/68.5 cm
Barrel Length: 14 in/35.6 cm
Calibre: 0.3 in/7.62 mm
Weight: 3.6 lbs/1.6 kg

Housed in the Royal Armouries:
https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-40772
View attachment 283834

Hi Flint

Also, a good example of a carbine length barrel and forearm, but with a pistol sized grip. There seems to have been a time during this period where the builders were trying to get the sight advantage of a shoulder gun without the need of a shoulder/cheek style of butt stock. Possibly for carrying/shooting from horseback ?

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi Flint

Also, a good example of a carbine length barrel and forearm, but with a pistol sized grip. There seems to have been a time during this period where the builders were trying to get the sight advantage of a shoulder gun without the need of a shoulder/cheek style of butt stock. Possibly for carrying/shooting from horseback ?

Rick

There are enough of these still around that I wonder if they actually were military arms and not just a rich man’s curio

The Dresden armory has a couple “pistols” from the 1540s or 50s that are 30 inches long!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Possibly for carrying/shooting from horseback?

Likely ... as that must be muzzle heavy and would certainly be far easier to aim it whilst pointing down, LOL!

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Often amazed at the inventiveness of our early weapons-makers. Herr Dubler must have been great at trial-and-error gunsmithing!

It even uses a "common today" caliber projectile with that .30 cal/7.62 mm. Loading it probably not quite as easy as today's "drop in" ammo.

 

[rickystl]

Likely ... as that must be muzzle heavy and would certainly be far easier to aim it whilst pointing down, LOL!

LOL Well, I can't think of another reason for the stock shape. I've seen photos of early Spanish miquelet pistols done the same way, with longer barrels and pistol type grips.

Rick

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

30" bbl., multiple cylinders and pistol grip: Oxymoron..! Trying to appease those who wanted a carbine for greater range, those who wanted a pistol for convenience and those that wanted more firepower....Great engineering back in the day....
Don't think it solved the solution for either customer in the long run; maybe a few? I wonder if the cylinder was removable? Suppose the owner could purchase several cylinders, pre-load them and pop a loaded cylinder in when needed? The first ever machine gun?

 

[TobJohn]

Michael Tromner claimed that “pistol” wasn’t even used in the 16th century and that all these wheellocks were just called “arquebus”.
A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

That seems a little questionable, even though he is THE source on these matters, but helps to illustrate why these funky guns exist. All sorts of experimentation and only vaguely defined roles and forms.

Terzaroulo (an Italian word I probably spelled wrong) were a type of gun from the end of the 16th century and possibly onwards, that were super large pistols that a cuirassier or harquebusier could use with two hands. Very confusingly, they are often called “petronel” in English (such as in the Royal Armouries), even though they aren’t the bent stock petronel.

I doubt that the cylinder is meant to be swapable because the gun is built around the central shaft through the cylinder. 4-8 shots is already a lot more than 1! Particularly if you are parlor shooting and have your servant to reload, or the unlikely chance you used this in combat and tactics were already built around 1 or 2 shots.

 

[TobJohn]

Here are the relevant photos:

The Dresden armory has a couple “pistols” from the 1540s or 50s that are 30 inches long!

SKD | Online Collection

Terzaroulo (an Italian word I probably spelled wrong) were a type of gun from the end of the 16th century and possibly onwards, that were super large pistols that a cuirassier or harquebusier could use with two hands. Very confusingly, they are often called “petronel” in English (such as in the Royal Armouries), even though they aren’t the bent stock petronel.

Royal Armouries “petronel”

Collections Online
.

 

[BillinOregon]

Have to wonder if some of these were fired Tanegashima-style with pistol butt steadied against the cheek and left hand supporting the forend.

 

[TobJohn]

Have to wonder if some of these were fired Tanegashima-style with pistol butt steadied against the cheek and left hand supporting the forend.

Most likely. The Graz book has some examples of guns like the the terzaroulo I posted, but a little straighter, so those must have been shot like that.

There are some surviving wheellock revolvers with similar stocks, which would have been terrifying to fire. If you used both hands, must have been a very real possibility of a chain fire blowing off your hand! Notice how the gun flint posted has a metal deflector right in front of the cylinder, so they must have known it was a possible problem.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Most likely. The Graz book has some examples of guns like the the terzaroulo I posted, but a little straighter, so those must have been shot like that.

There are some surviving wheellock revolvers with similar stocks, which would have been terrifying to fire. If you used both hands, must have been a very real possibility of a chain fire blowing off your hand! Notice how the gun flint posted has a metal deflector right in front of the cylinder, so they must have known it was a possible problem.

Yessiree. That 'deflector' may have also served to prevent accidentaly grabbing onto the cylinder, which would have burned the hand upon firing and could have also hindered the rotation of said cylinder.

 

[TobJohn]

After thinking about this mechanism more, how did they not constantly chain fire? They supposedly work by using a super long flash channel from the wheellock pan, through a hole at the back of each chamber. The fitting between the rear part of the gun and the cylinder would have to be so tight that no extra flash could get through, but still be loose enough to rotate. I assume you’d also have to be careful what you lube it up with, because some sort of tallow where the cylinder and back of the gun interface, would quickly clog the flash holes?

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

After thinking about this mechanism more, how did they not constantly chain fire? They supposedly work by using a super long flash channel from the wheellock pan, through a hole at the back of each chamber. The fitting between the rear part of the gun and the cylinder would have to be so tight that no extra flash could get through, but still be loose enough to rotate. I assume you’d also have to be careful what you lube it up with, because some sort of tallow where the cylinder and back of the gun interface, would quickly clog the flash holes?

TobJohn: First on the muzzle end of each cylinder....Much like Colt recommended with his famous B/P revolvers....and even today.....once the cylinder was loaded, cover the open end of the cylinder with beeswax, tallow, etc.. even today, when those steps are not taken with a cap & Ball revolver....you will get a chain fire. I even witnessed one back in the late 1980's with a second gen Colt Army!

Now on the breech side of the wheelock pan as you were discussing......your guess is as good as mine. Maybe there were pan covers over the priming pan for each cylinder that had to be flipped opened before each shot? Maybe the cylinders were all loaded, but the prime was not put in the respective pans until the next shot was performed? Still faster than loading one cylinder, shooting, loading another, etc.. Maybe that is why these medieval revolvers were never produced in any numbers? I believe there are museum matchlocks with multiple cylinders? Same song?

The Goldfish is "ON FIRE"!

 

[Sam squanch]

I seriously think that some of these monstrosities were made just to impress a royal patron, or one upmanship between gunmakers.

 

[TobJohn]

I seriously think that some of these monstrosities were made just to impress a royal patron, or one upmanship between gunmakers.

I’d agree, but the amount of survivors is surprising

 

[TobJohn]

TobJohn: First on the muzzle end of each cylinder....Much like Colt recommended with his famous B/P revolvers....and even today.....once the cylinder was loaded, cover the open end of the cylinder with beeswax, tallow, etc.. even today, when those steps are not taken with a cap & Ball revolver....you will get a chain fire. I even witnessed one back in the late 1980's with a second gen Colt Army!

Now on the breech side of the wheelock pan as you were discussing......your guess is as good as mine. Maybe there were pan covers over the priming pan for each cylinder that had to be flipped opened before each shot? Maybe the cylinders were all loaded, but the prime was not put in the respective pans until the next shot was performed? Still faster than loading one cylinder, shooting, loading another, etc.. Maybe that is why these medieval revolvers were never produced in any numbers? I believe there are museum matchlocks with multiple cylinders? Same song?

The Goldfish is "ON FIRE"!

The matchlocks ignite the chambers directly.

The Snaplock/snaphance versions are a similar method.

It seems like the trade off is that on the wheellock, you have to prime each shot and the flash can possibly jump chambers behind the cylinders, while the matchlock and Snaplock method has a priming charge included for each chamber, so no flash spreading behind the cylinder, but the priming pans could possibly ignite each other.

Certainly a different safety mindset from today!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Is that one from the Hermitage, Tob?

 

[TobJohn]

Is that one from the Hermitage, Tob?

I’m not actually sure. I had saved it on my phone but I don’t remember where I found it.

 

[Jay Templin]

The way you take the grip and sight these is remarkably similar to the way you hold a rapier. Probably trying to cash in on muscle memory.
Jay