Revolutionary War Semi correct Long Rifle

[Melnic]

Ok, I'd like a flintlock.
But I"m thinking I'd want something semi period correct to the revolutionary war.
Looking at the Pedersoli Kentucky and Pennsylvania Long rifles at Cabelas, I'm thinking I may catch one of those on sale at some point.
Would These fit my description of "semi period correct" for a revolutionary war Militia man?

 

[LRB]

I would suggest you save a little more money and buy an "in the white" rifle from Tip Curtis, or other maker that offers them.

 

[Trot]

Yeah, the Pedersoli might sort of, kind of resemble a later period rifle. For Revolutionary war you definitely need to look elsewhere.

 

[Col. Batguano]

:thumbsup: The Pedersoli has a narrower butt with more hook to the toe, and I believe is of walnut, rather than maple. The other thing about the Pedersoli is that you will probably get a fair amount of grain runout at the wrist. During the period, private makers generally preferred maple for rifles, (it's stronger in all catagories) as walnut was pretty much known as a military, fowler, or musket wood. Styling wise, that is more representative of the 1800-1820 period than the 1760-1780 period, where butts were a little heavier, with less hook to them, (sort of like a shotgun butt is shaped) more reminiscent of Jaeger or French styling, similar to the Charleville or Bess muskets. Look at the "early Lancaster" styling of Isaac Haines offering on Track's or Tip Curtis' sites to get a better feel for the Rev. War period LR's. Wooden patch boxes were more common than brass in the period too, though both were out there.

 

[galamb]

Agree - the Kentucky is (somewhat) representative of the period perhaps 20 years after the revolution.

While the Pennsylvania (as opposed to the Dixie model) is maybe "passable" being a very plain rifle, the issue with it is that it only comes in 32 and 45 cal which is very much on the "light side" for the time period you are after.

In the late 1770's the calibers were generally "larger" - there was still med/large game in the east.

Also, the influence in the rifle styles was still very Germanic. Also, rifles would have typically had a wooden patch box (if one was present).

If you are looking for a Pedersoli offering that would be somewhat correct you would be better served looking at their Jager model (Hunter Flintlock) - no not an American weapon, but they (Pedersoli) just don't replicate a mid/late 1700's US built rifle in their selection.

As has been suggested, a Jacob Dickert or JP Beck styled rifle, in the white, from someone like Tip Curtis would cost you roughly the same as a Pedersoli offering and WOULD be representative of an American rifle in existence during the American insurgency (sorry Rev War - perspective depending on which side you sat :grin: )

 

[nchawkeye]

No production rifles would fit the bill...

 

[Alden]

Today I'd get their Kentucky or probably the Frontier* (like Cabela's proprietary Blue Ridge is it?) in .50 or so, and if you want deluxe they have maple of some models, and more. I personally would NOT get a custom first anymore, especially unseen and unhandled, nor the Pennsylvania.

*

 

[Rick Boylan]

That sure is a pretty rifle. :bow:

 

[Spikebuck]

WOULD be representative of an American rifle in existence during the American insurgency (sorry Rev War - perspective depending on which side you sat :grin: )

I don't know if the word was used back then, but I'll bet ol' King George would have called them "terrorists!"

On topic now... like others here have recommended, I would save a little more money and get a semi-custom gun over a production. Good ones can be had for just a little more money and I'll bet the overall satisfaction gotten will far outweigh the small extra cost.

I was a huge Pedersoli fan and have owned (and still do) several, including my all-time favorite Rocky Mountain Hawken, but I think quality of late has fallen off drastically...at least in the ones they are producing for Cabelas. I recently bought and sent back one of their Kentucky pistols it was so bad (actually unsafe)and recently visited three Cabelas stores while in Nebraska and was able to view a wide variety of models...wow...what a disappointment. Even the current Rocky Mountain Hawken is a shadow of it's former quality. Very sad.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well the Cabela's Blue Ridge Hunter is the least offensive to the eye when it comes to 18th century long rifles made in a factory...

The sights are wrong, the ramrod thimbles are used to retain the barrel, and the shape of the stock forward of the rear sight is / \ when it should be \ /. Not to mention the case hardening finish on the lock.

They are good rifles. Mine shot very well, and with some cosmetic changes it looked better than out of the box, but the stock really can't be modified.

Still, for a starter flintlock for RevWar living history, especially if you're not going to be able to spend much beyond $700 on a rifle in the near future, it would work. A rifle from Mr. Curtis would be MUCH better, but if the choice was getting the Pedersoli or not participating, I'd buy the Pedersoli.

I'd get it in .54 though...

LD

 

[MJMarkey]

The typical militia man of the Revolution era would likely be carrying a Long barreled, large bore smooth barrel fowling piece, that could also double as a musket, and could accept a bayonet. The southern rifles would have been long barrel with a minimum 50 cal. Swamped barrel, sliding wooden patchbox if at all. Few early brass patch boxes pre-revolution. Butt plate would be somewhat flat or slightly curved, and close to 2" in width and would have a straight comb on the stock. Very brief typical appearance.

If you are looking for a pre-revolution rifle you won't find a production model. But you should be able to find a moderately priced used rifle or as some have mentioned an in the white rifle that can be finished by you. Good luck and don't get discouraged. If you're interested in a group, find out what they will accept as a starter rifle. A lot depends on the group standards.

 

[tenngun]

Above is all too true. I believe even on the frontier more people carried smoothies instead of rifles at this time. But the only revolutionary smoothies offered 'over the counter' are military or the trade fusil that looks similar to 19th century NWG.Even in the white simi custom guns offered by some gun makers in rifled or smooth will have some 'short cuts' in to the production to make almost hc gun.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I honestly would recommend that you don't buy any production rifle. Rather look for used ones or buy one from a small builder. I purchased a Traditions Pennsylvania rifle as my first longrifle because it was advertised (and still is) as “authentic for re-enactment use from the American Revolutionary Brigade". There is no "American Revolutionary Brigade". There is definitely the Brigade of the American Revolution (BAR) and it is one of the two major reenactment groups in the US, the other being the Continental Line. Neither of those major reenactment organizations endorse that rifle.

As I learned more about longrifles it became glaringly apparent that the Traditions Pennsylvania rifle is done in the style of a Golden Era rifle (from about 1790 through 1820). Since the demand for rifles shrank tremendously after the war, Golden Era rifles were typically heavily decorated as builders tried to distinguish their rifles from the rest of the gunsmiths. That's when the brass plates along the forearm, the decorations around the wrist and the pierced patch boxes became prominent. Before and during the Rev War you would not see decor along the forearm around the wrist or as pierced patchboxes. Earliest rifle either had no patchbox or a wooden one. Brass patchboxes started being used near the start of the war. About the only decoration would be a thumbpiece on top of the wrist or a hunter's star or other brass inlay on the cheekpiece. Most early rifles had neither. So stay away from rifles with all the brass decor on them.

Nonetheless, I used it in reenactments for a number of years and no one said I couldn't. I pickled the barrel on it which made it look older, but there was nothing I could do about the brass inlays on the forearm. Finally, after years of saving up, I bought a much more historically correct rifle from tg, a member of this forum. It is a beautiful rifle and I get compliments on it everywhere I take it. Plus, since it is Early Lancaster Style and uses a Queen Anne lock, it is also reasonable for F&I reenactments. I only wish I had saved the money I spent on the Traditions and bought this one first.

Rifles were certainly around during the French and Indian war era and there's plenty of primary documentation attesting to that. However, there are darn few extant examples and the only surviving ones that I know of are questionable as to whether or not they really are that old. Best bet is to go with an something like an early Lancaster that has a buttplate between 1½ and 2" in width that has very little curve in its shape along with a wide but short wrist (1½ to 2 times wider than it is tall). Look for a swamped barrel in .50 cal or larger set in a narrow and graceful forearm. For early rifles, it's hard to go wrong with a Queen Anne style, round-faced lock (English) as they were available in vast quantities in the colonies from the early 1700's into the 1800's.

So I'd say, don't buy a production gun. Save your money and, for a few hundred dollars more, purchase a more historically correct one used or through a small builder. You won't regret it.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

If someone wants a Revolutionary or earlier period, factory production rifle, there is one available.

Although it is not a very good example of most of the guns at the time, the Pedersoli Jager is flintlock. It has a sliding wooden patch box and a fairly wide, semi flat butt plate.

I can't say I really like the rate of twist they used (1:24) but even that isn't far off of what the original guns had. Many of them had a 1 turn in the barrel length and the Pedersoli's 1:24 comes close to matching the 28 inch barrel.

Over the years, several people who owned these rifles have gotten some pretty good accuracy out of the barrel with the appropriate patched roundballs. At least, that's what they have posted on the Forum.

PEDERSOLI JAGER

One problem with this rifle if it is going to be used for re-enactment is the only troops armed with such a weapon were Germans dressed in their own specialized uniforms.

This same Jaeger could also fit (loosely) into a French/Indian war era re-enactment.

The roughly $1400 price tag of one of these puts it into competition with some of the good examples of the real Revolutionary War styled longrifles available from some of the smaller gunmakers.

Given the choice (for those who can afford it) the small gunmakers rifles would be the way to go, IMO.

 

[Turtle Creek]

Look for a nice used custom rifle/smoothie...they come up and lots of sources. http://longrifle.com/forsale/default.asp?age=Contemporary&orderby=&categoryID=1&curpage=2 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Index.aspx http://www.claysmithguns.com/guns_on_hand.htm

 

[Tommy Bruce]

I don't believe there is a sorta, kinda, period correct rifle. It's either right or it isn't. Given the prices these days of the Italian imports, I'd start saving money and opt for a custom build or like others have said, start looking at the used section on the trading board. I don't think Pedersoli offers anything in the way of a rifle that is even close, Jaeger rifle included. The locks & Butt plates are wrong, sights are wrong, no side plate or entry thimbles on most offerings, and the straight barrels are ridiculously heavy. Even plain rifles had minimal carving and a patch box. If you look at Rifles of Colonial American Vol. I or II you will see what I am talking about. I think the best advice that was offered here would be to buy one from Tip. If you can sand and stain, then get it in the white and finish it yourself. That will save you some more money.

 

[Rick Boylan]

Wow, really? Those are affordable prices for you?

I am working full time. Putting my kid through college and having many other real expenses and you believe that I should not put $500 into a pedersoli and hold out for a used gun that is over a thousand dollars just so you will accept me into your group?

Darn, that's not acceptable. Not everyone has that kind of money nor would we spend it on a used copy of a more PC gun just to fit in. I'm about done with this gun bigot stuff. Custom guns are nice, but they are still reproductions and not the real deal. Unless you are shooting a real period gun then don't be such a snob. All you are doing is chasing off the next generation of those who could keep the sport alive. This stuff is getting crazy.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Iowa, you are touching at one of these very disturbing aspects of message forums and the internet.

What most of us have done is purchased an inexpensive gun to learn about muzzleloading. Most of the reenacting groups that I shoot with are welcoming and won't be that snobbish with a person, new to the hobby with a not quite historically correct firearm. The first concern is do you want to learn about the use of traditional firearms and about the history associated with their use?

What we do know is that once you have participated and shot your gun, you will want more out of the hobby and as a flintlock gun needs a quality flint lock to make the art of shooting a flint lock rifle reliable, a custom or near custom gun with a tuned lock gets added to the need list. Now lately Pedersoli guns are getting priced in the range of semi custom guns and finding a $500 Pedersoli (new) is going to be rare.

If what you want to do is shoot, then buy the gun and shoot at a traditional shooting club. My club will welcome folks who want to shoot traditional muzzle loading guns to our range and to shoot at the public events.

If you want to participate in historically correct events, then go to the group and ask to participate. To start, you won't even need to have a gun. It's quite likely that a gun would be loaned out.

So, if you want to participate in a historically correct style, find a unit to reenact with. Then worry about spending money on the clothes, accessories and lastly, the gun. You will be able to find used clothes and probably even a used (historically acceptable) gun at significant savings over purchase at a big box store.

People are not really being snobbish when they suggest waiting and saving the money for a more historically correct gun. It's more of an acknowledgement of "we've been there and done that" and we have spent more money than if we had taken our time.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

And this is why I seldom post on here anymore. The original poster never mentioned a price point to start. There is a huge difference between a custom gun and an Italian import. Would it make more sense to spend 700.00 to 1000.00 on a gun that is not even close to being right, lose 50% of it's value when you sell it (That's what happens to used black powder imports) and then start all over again? It has nothing to do with being a gun snob (stupid term) but sharing knowledge which is what this board is supposed to be about. I'm not a master gun builder by a long shot but have build enough to know that when you take chisels, rasps, files & other hand tools and take a chunk of walnut, maple, cherry or ash and turn it into a rifle gun or fowling piece; it is not a reproduction. The craftsmen in this hobby that are doing this for a living are not getting rich selling rifles for 2 or even 3 grand. It's real easy to wrap up over a hundred to hundred and fifty hours in a build, Figure 6-800 dollars in parts and add a little for shop supplies then do the math. A lot of builders sell for much less than that. Yes it's a lot of money to put out there at one time, but money spent on a finely crafted rifle is an investment as well.

 

[Alden]

Iowa, there are good points here across the board including your own. There are snobs, and Tommy may be walking the line, but please understand what they mean...

There are different levels of correctness. While the Pedersolis are beautiful, affordable, quality (and I stated my recommendation) they are "acceptable" in certain circles but not perfect. The differences can be minor and that's when the snobs are evident, jumping up and down, looking for chances to shoot you down, scold you, ridicule you in front of others, and often about things that are minor, maybe immaterial, and even questionable. But part of the drive is, indeed, to be complete and accurate in your representation. Your equipment is the easy part by the way. It just takes the investment.

Monetary cost is definitely a barrier to entry of "the hobby." As is time. I borrowed my stand-of-arms for almost two years and bought the rest of the kit over that time to see how interested I was in even playing this reenacting game. That said, you can appreciate that there is a minimum level af acceptability. Just admit it -- you'll feel better. For example, no-one would be allowed to reenact, as far as I know, with an AR-15 or a Traditions caplock having a brass plate between the front and back parts of the two-piece stock, in a Rev. War portrayal, right? To the more knowledgeable folks having a sight leaf with a wrong 15-degree angle in it makes them just as crazy and, to them, you a fool for buying that awful gun in the first place. Don't get too angry with them -- they just don't know how to play well with others. Some even seldom post here anymore as a result...

But truly listen to them. Thank them. Then move the hell on and past them. Get reasonably involved vs. not at all. Constantly improve -- it's a journey not a destination. My opinion? It is better to be a diamond with a flaw than a perfect rockhead. Yet there is a price to even get into the game. For me, custom, especially unseen with hillbilly cheats like TVM, John Buck, etc., ain't it anymore.