Revolver loading

[rodwha]

That's news to me. I always thought 000 buck was the largest until I came across 0000 once (online). I believe it was 0.380".

 

[USMA65]

Although it would seem to be a strange thing for a grown man to do, this topic got me to wondering how much pressure would be needed to press a lead ball into the chamber of a Cap & Ball pistol.

I couldn't find a good formula for shearing off the outside of an object so I settled on the formula for punching an object out of a plate. (I'm sure just shearing off some material would take far less pressure than punching out an object like a round disk so take my answers to be on the high side. High side or not, the percentages in the amount of force needed to do the job will be very close to the real world.)

The formula for punching something like a washer out of a steel plate is Diameter X Thickness X 85.
That gives the number of tons to punch a hole in a mild steel plate.

If the plate was brass, the formula is Diameter X Thickness X 65 = Tons of force needed.

These two factors, the 80 and 65 have a relationship that corresponds with the materials tensile strength.
Based on that correlation I find the factor for lead to be 3.25. (Remember, shearing off the outside of an object needs less pressure than the punching out formula predicts).

OK. So how much "thickness" is there when you press a larger round ball into the cylinder?
The "thickness" is the length of the cylindrical surface after the ball is pressed in place.

That answer is pretty easy to calculate if you know the diameter of the ball and the diameter of the chamber.
It equals √ ball²-chamber². (the square root of the diameter of the ball squared, minus the diameter of the chamber squared).

If the chamber for your .44 measures .446" and the ball is .451" the length of the flat area on the sheared ball will be .067" long.
For a .454" ball in a .446" chamber the length is .084"
For a .457" ball in a .446" chamber the length is .100.

So, to figure the amount of pressure needed to press the ball into the hole, if I use the washer formula I have, Dia X Length X 3.25/2000 to get pounds of force.

The .451 ball would need 194 pounds.
The .454 ball would need 243 pounds.
The .457 ball would need 289 pounds.

If the projectile was a bullet with a land length of .250" (1/4") the force would be 724 pounds.

Using the 194 pound figure for the .451 ball as a baseline, the .454 diameter ball requires a force 125% greater and the .457 diameter ball requires a force 149% greater.
The bullet with its .250 long cylindrical diameter would require a force that is 373% greater.
(That's why I recommend using a loading stand if you want to load bullets into your C&B chamber.)

OK. I think I'll go take an aspirin. For some reason I have a headache. :grin:

This reminds me of plebe calculus :surrender:
Zonie,aspirin will not work !!!

 

[Claude Mathis]

Still waiting for how this relates to competition shooting, which is what he ALWAYS brings up. As though there isn't any other reason to own or shoot BP arms...

Maybe the rest of us are just foolish idiots needing his guidance and expertise, which, according to his responses, would seem to be the case. Maybe his invitations are for us all who load more than his target loads.

Well, here's the original question: "Has anyone ever just used a short dowel and a mallet for seating the balls in their revolver cylinder?"

I suggest everyone get back on topic.

 

[rodwha]

True enough, though he also said:

"I really don't like loading my gun using the built-in lever since I have a hard time keeping the muzzle pointed where I want it (downrange)."

And:

"...I just don't feel like I can control the muzzle very well and that makes me nervous."

To which I replied:

"Without the nipples being capped there shouldn't be much concern."

But then somehow it turned into what happens at match shoots again followed by condescending drivel that's irrelevant to the topics at hand.

 

[gbeauvin]

Hey guys . Thanks for the replies! Looks like I'm good most any way I cut it (on the gun, off the gun with a loading stand, or with an appropriately secured cylinder and a short starter/mallet), and I appreciate the confirmation. That's a few extra pennies saved (which will probably get spent on flints while I work through issues with my long-gun, go figure).

-GB

 

[nhmoose]

For the measuring I would drop the math. Get a digital bath scale, put loading stand and gun on it and tare it. Load the ball and get the actual poundage needed. Less head ache to me. :idunno: op:

 

[Powerkicker]

Wouldn't the mechanical advantage granted by the pivot of the loading arm go unrecognized if one does as you suggest?

 

[nhmoose]

beats me just saying actual force would show in a layman's way.

Why don't you torture yourself developing a formula that most will criticize and then forget anyway going back to actual findings such as, this ball is to big and breaks my gun. op:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Although it would seem to be a strange thing for a grown man to do, this topic got me to wondering how much pressure would be needed to press a lead ball into the chamber of a Cap & Ball pistol.

I couldn't find a good formula for shearing off the outside of an object so I settled on the formula for punching an object out of a plate. (I'm sure just shearing off some material would take far less pressure than punching out an object like a round disk so take my answers to be on the high side. High side or not, the percentages in the amount of force needed to do the job will be very close to the real world.)

The formula for punching something like a washer out of a steel plate is Diameter X Thickness X 85.
That gives the number of tons to punch a hole in a mild steel plate.

If the plate was brass, the formula is Diameter X Thickness X 65 = Tons of force needed.

These two factors, the 80 and 65 have a relationship that corresponds with the materials tensile strength.
Based on that correlation I find the factor for lead to be 3.25. (Remember, shearing off the outside of an object needs less pressure than the punching out formula predicts).

OK. So how much "thickness" is there when you press a larger round ball into the cylinder?
The "thickness" is the length of the cylindrical surface after the ball is pressed in place.

That answer is pretty easy to calculate if you know the diameter of the ball and the diameter of the chamber.
It equals √ ball²-chamber². (the square root of the diameter of the ball squared, minus the diameter of the chamber squared).

If the chamber for your .44 measures .446" and the ball is .451" the length of the flat area on the sheared ball will be .067" long.
For a .454" ball in a .446" chamber the length is .084"
For a .457" ball in a .446" chamber the length is .100.

So, to figure the amount of pressure needed to press the ball into the hole, if I use the washer formula I have, Dia X Length X 3.25/2000 to get pounds of force.

The .451 ball would need 194 pounds.
The .454 ball would need 243 pounds.
The .457 ball would need 289 pounds.

If the projectile was a bullet with a land length of .250" (1/4") the force would be 724 pounds.

Using the 194 pound figure for the .451 ball as a baseline, the .454 diameter ball requires a force 125% greater and the .457 diameter ball requires a force 149% greater.
The bullet with its .250 long cylindrical diameter would require a force that is 373% greater.
(That's why I recommend using a loading stand if you want to load bullets into your C&B chamber.)

OK. I think I'll go take an aspirin. For some reason I have a headache. :grin:

I love when you do the "math" thing..... :haha: :thumbsup:

Weren't loading levers invented so guys wouldn't have to load the cylinders with a dowel and mallet?
Why would anyone want to un-engineer perfection?

 

[azmntman]

with my ROA it would be so I wouldn't break it (if anyone could its me). I like that gun and w/o parts a dowel n mallet seems cheap aggrivation :idunno:

 

[swathdiver]

Forgive me if this seems obvious, it did not to me at first. If you find yourself with the muzzle pointing where it should not while loading, try standing perpendicular to the lane with your muzzle pointed downrange while seating the ball.

One can make an on the gun loading stand with as few as two pieces of pine, I like 4 for mine. The base is about 10" long and 3-1/2' wide, the stand is the same width and about 4-1/4" high. You can use a hole saw, coping saw, whatever to cut the valley for your sixgun to set in. Glue and screw.

A cylinder stand, why there's really none better than the Tower of Power and the one from Powder Inc. We've got a Tower of Power and have been using it for years. Great tool to have around!

From reading these posts, one wonder if its not the diameter of the round ball but rather the hardness that is making them a challenge to load?

 

[rodwha]

"From reading these posts, one wonder if its not the diameter of the round ball but rather the hardness that is making them a challenge to load?"

I'd agree as I mostly load and shoot my conicals which no doubt are harder on the linkage compared to a round ball (0.456" conical vs 0.457" ball). It's not even much of an effort. Mine are all made from old lead pipe from the scrap yard.

 

[rodwha]

"Weren't loading levers invented so guys wouldn't have to load the cylinders with a dowel and mallet?
Why would anyone want to un-engineer perfection?"

Precisely how I see it. And I certainly wouldn't want unnecessary contraptions out in the field. But I guess some just shoot in places where unnecessary rules rule the day.

In many places it's not loaded if there aren't caps since it's impossible to discharge unless you toss it in a fire. But then some places have their rules. Apparently some of us shoot in places where fires run rampant.

 

[Mean Gene]

Wow that's a lot more than I imagined.

 

[Zonie]

Wow that's a lot more than I imagined.

As I said in my original post, those pressures are what would be needed to punch a disk out of a solid lead plate, leaving a hole behind.

Because we are not actually punching out a disk, but rather, shearing off some lead from the sides of the ball, the displaced lead can move outward away from the ball rather than creating a strong resistance to the operation.

I found a value for the shear strength of pure lead so, using a different approach I ran the numbers for the different balls I mentioned above to see what the results would be.

For shearing off a chunk of material the formula is the area of the displaced cut away material (the sheared surface area) times the shear strength of the material.
In this case, my information says pure leads shear strength is 1820 psi.

Using the length of the finished .446 diameter (.446 times Pi), times the length of the sheared area times 1820 I get:

The .451 ball would need 170.9 pounds.
The .454 ball would need 214 pounds.
The .457 ball would need 255 pounds.
The .250 long bullet land would need 637 pounds.

These values are a little less than my previous calculation but they all say no one is going to push the ball in with their thumb. :rotf:

Many of us couldn't even push down on a loading dowel hard enough to get the ball into the chamber.
A nice light tap with a small hammer would do the job though.

 

[nkbj]

Check your chambers for a significant angle taper reaming.
Bigger and harder the ball the more resistance you get after it's sheared and into the chamber.
Got one Pietta that even varies from one chamber to the next.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Has anyone actually broken a loading lever?...

I've never seen one.......................
I'm starting to think it's just one of those myths.... :hmm:

 

[gbeauvin]

Has anyone actually broken a loading lever?...

I've never seen one.......................
I'm starting to think it's just one of those myths.... :hmm:

Define "broken"? The pivot hole on mine stretched into a long oval and it no longer functioned properly. Functionally it was broken, but technically the lever was still a single piece.

-GB

 

[Zonie]

I recall, years ago, someone had posted about his reproduction 1860 Colt Army loading lever problem.

I looked for it but I couldn't find the post.

These pistols have a case hardned "creeping loading lever" which has teeth on the lever.

They mate with a series of holes that are drilled
part way thru the wall of the unhardened barrel acting like mating teeth in a set of gears.

It seems he had been loading slugs and the hardened teeth on the loading lever had worn away the metal between the holes in the barrel essentially "stripping" the gear and making the loading lever useless.

 

[hawkeye2]

I remember that post or one just like it and it seems I have heard of more than one instance of that happening. Given the relatively soft barrel steel I wonder if there aren't cases of wear just shooting a lot of soft easy loading round balls.