revolver wads

[Dickydalton]

I can see that I may be a bit short on educational credentials to be contradicting any scholars on here, but.I have recovered round balls from a sand trap with wads lubed with gatefoe #1 stuck to the back of the ball like a bullet base. The wads were blackened on the rear but showed no sign of flame leakage past the outer diameter of the thickness side. The ball was shiny on the bearing surface where the rifling left it's mark with no sign of powder flash. The wads are a generous 1/8 to almost 3/16 thick and I get them from the Possibles Shop and make the lube myself.
:v

 

[zimmerstutzen]

3/16 is enough to have the thickness push out and seal the bore. An 1/8 inch wad must be slightly over size or it won't work.

 

[Dickydalton]

All I'm saying is that my 45 cal wads, that are smaller than 50 cal (not .707) and 1/8" thick,soaked in G-#1 seal the chamber and the barrel. I can repeat the conditions and send you the proof sometime if you wish to dispute my statement. I also had the same exact experience the same day with my 1851 Colt 2nd Gen. .36.
just sayin' :idunno:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

All I am saying, is that you can't see into the chamber to see if it is sealed or not.

Geometrically, it is highly unlikely for a .450 wad to seal the bore.

If you had wads stuck to balls, the fire obviously was able to heat the lube to cause the wad to glue to the ball. Most likely throwing accuracy to heck. The wads weren't enough to be ripped off by air resistance which just as likely means the wad wasn't large enough to be subject to the air resistance flowing around the ball as it made it's way out the muzzle. i.e. it isn't large enough to cover the hemisphere of the ball down in the chamber.

I put balls down without wads and see no evidence on the recovered balls of any powder burn. So your "evidence" is subject to interpretation both ways.

 

[cynthialee]

now we need a cylender made of a strong transparent glass so we can load it and look at the wad, ball, powder seal visually

 

[Billnpatti]

Look, we both agree that the wad has to be larger than the bore of the cylinder in order to seal. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in order to properly seal the diameter of the wad must be C/pi and have a thickness greater than 1/8 inch. I have no doubt that such a seal will, in fact, do the job quite nicely. On the other hand, my contention is that the wad doesn't have to be as large nor as thick a wad as you insist to do the job equally as well. My contention is that as long as the wad just fits snugly in the cylinder, it will properly seal the powder from the ball during firing. I also contend that a properly fitted wad need not be any thicker than 1/8 inch. Thicker is okay but not absolutely necessary.

I know that we both feel that we are casting pearls before swine. :rotf: I also know that I will not change your mind nor will you change mine. Let's just load our revolvers as we please and have fun. :thumbsup:

 

[pargent]

The only reliable fire seal is the interference fit of the ball into the chamber , the fit of the caps onto the tappered surface of the nipples.Buy the correct size wads to suit your gun , I use the wads and find for me they produce slightly better groups, require the use of less filler, are a very good bullet lube and help in keeping the gun cleaner during a match.

 

[M. De Land]

Just seating a ball larger than cylinder throat diameter makes it not a ball anymore and set back at ignition further distorts the sphere.
All the wad has to do is hold the powder behind the ball until it is fired.
Black powder does not simultaneously ignite or explode, it burns very fast but none the less from back to front of the powder column and the powder in the front,behind the wad,plug seals by itself, the bore,until long after the ball has passed through the forcing cone and gone up bore.
This is easily seen when shooting over snow or a sheet of paper. When you get to much powder or two large of granulation, unburned grains lay on the ground ahead of the muzzle.
Truth be told any wad thick and large enough across to hold back the powder grains at seating before ignition will work just fine and lube adds to this dynamic along with softening the fouling.
The over sized ball and lube stop the chain fire problem from the front but I'm convince most all of them happen from the back end from loosened caps. MD

 

[Dickydalton]

The air flowing across an airplane wing never touches the back of the wing either. Have you looked at airflow chambers for race cars? Come on, give it up. I said 45 cal wads and not .450 wads. They are closer to .495 but I ain't going to the garage to tweek you anymore. They had ZERO burn on the edge that contacted the barrel thus they sealed the bore!

 

[Dickydalton]

:thumbsup:

 

[M. De Land]

The front of the powder column and the ball are sealing the bore not the wad if properly sized. Cylinder throats are usually at or .001 larger than groove diameter plus the lead ball obturates and reinforces the already filled grooves once it has passed the cone.The forcing cone swages the already expanded ball back down to groove diameter. If the ball does not fill the groove at this point no wad behind will seal the bore and you will get leading like crazy from blow by.
I don't believe Cap and ball revolvers shooting round balls were designed to use wads and filler as far as I know. The loads were simply and initially powder,oversize ball and lube. Target shooting introduced the use of wads and filler as far as I know. MD

 

[Dickydalton]

So, you say the wads that showed no gas leakage past them just were going faster than the gasses and didn't seal the bore and the gasses vented behind them? :hmm:

 

[M. De Land]

The patch edges were not burned because the ball ahead of it was sealing the grooves in the bore and not allowing any gas to escape around either one. If the ball did not fill the grooves your patch behind would not seal off the grooves either and then they would probably show burned edges.
Eventually the front of the powder column burns as well, part way up the bore and now only the expanded lead ball and lube prevents blow by and leading. That is why they work just fine without any wad or filler at all without leading.
With target loads we want partial charges thus the need for filler and or wads to limit the jump the ball has to make transitioning the cone. These revolvers were designed to be shot with full chamber loads and the ball seated flush with the cylinder mouth. In a .44 that is usually around 30 grains unless shooting a Walker or Dragoon. MD

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry,insert wad where I used patch. MD

 

[curator]

A compressed charge of Black powder ignited from the rear as in a C&B pistol, will burn from the ignition side with the forward part of the charge initially acting like a filler in sealing against powder gas leakage. Obturation will often take place within the first 3 or 4 inches of the bore, but not immediately upon ignition. A lube-saturated wad would be compressed against the ball exuding lube to provide a film of lubricant as the ball and unburned powder travel down the barrel. Fillers like Cream O' Wheat and corn meal work a bit better for gas seal but provide no surplus lubricant to keep cylinder turning free. Black powder almost never provides the high-temperature gas needed to cause gas cutting/leading even with seriously undersize projectiles in part due to the "filler effect" I allude to in the above. While accuracy suffers when undersize bullets are shot, rarely do they cause leading when using real black powder or modern substitutes. Anyone that believes that a full charge of black powder completely burns up in a 7 1/2 inch revolver barrel has never seen a night-time photo of one of these being fired. Wads do take up space, carry extra lubricant, and bring the ball closer to the forcing cone for better accuracy, but they do not provide much if any of a "gas-seal."

 

[Dickydalton]

Would you agree that they don't allow flames from a fired chamber to reach the powder in the unfired chambers next to it, even if the ball doesn't totally seal it? ie out of round or slightly small? Just lubing the bore and making more firing possible before cleaning is enough anyway. I did shoot without them 40 years ago and it su,,, well you know what I mean.

 

[pargent]

They may do that, but that is not the job of the wad. the only sure fire mechanical seals on a loaded chamber are as I have said before , are the interference fit of the ball into the chamber & the fit of the cap onto the nipple taper.Anything else is secondary eg (bullet grease over the ball usually is melted ,blown away after the first shots )

 

[zimmerstutzen]

If the grease is melted or blown away
The wrong stuff is being used

 

[pargent]

 

[Dickydalton]

That's why I use lubed wads. :thumbsup: