Rice's new Nock lock

[pamtnman]

Has anyone built a rifle using the Liston Rice "Nock" lock with the waterproof pan? If yes, I am eager to see some pictures, hear about the main spring fit into the mortise

 

[James Kibler]

I'll just say that there are much better options.

Jim

 

[pamtnman]

I'll just say that there are much better options.

Jim

Thank you, Jim, obviously a lot of us admire you and your work. Your observations here are very much most welcome, because you bring an informed view. Please help me out. I’m building a flintlock British Sporting Rifle, and so the Manton-style water proof pan is almost a necessity. It’s very much the look and function I want. If not the new Nock lock, then which lock fits that build?

 

[Robby]

Chambers Ketland is an excellent lock if it fall within the time frame you are trying to represent.
Robby

 

[pamtnman]

Chambers Ketland is an excellent lock if it fall within the time frame you are trying to represent.
Robby

Say 1815-1825, late flintlock era using the nicest flintlocks ever made. The Chambers and Kibler Late Ketland undoubtedly fit. The challenge is the look I’m after. That waterproof pan….

 

[dave_person]

Hi PAmtnman,
Rice replaced that mainspring and the new one was much better. On that lock, the sear bar was so short that it might not work on a gun with a robust wrist and big barrel. The other problem was the sear bar changed position on the plate quite a bit when the lock went from rest, halfcock, and fullcock. That makes fitting a simple trigger that is light and crisp complicated. It can be turned into a pretty good lock that should function well but it is not up to the quality of locks found on original guns by Nock, Durs Egg, Joe and John Manton.

dave

 

[pamtnman]

Hi PAmtnman,
Rice replaced that mainspring and the new one was much better. On that lock, the sear bar was so short that it might not work on a gun with a robust wrist and big barrel. The other problem was the sear bar changed position on the plate quite a bit when the lock went from rest, halfcock, and fullcock. That makes fitting a simple trigger that is light and crisp complicated. It can be turned into a pretty good lock that should function well but it is not up to the quality of locks found on original guns by Nock, Durs Egg, Joe and John Manton.

dave

Thank you very much, Dave, I really do so much appreciate your help here.
The Manton/Nock look with the waterproof pan is what I am after, AS WELL AS the high function of the originals. The gun is a 62 caliber British Sporting Rifle, and the wrist is thick and the barrel is wide. The ramrod is 7/16" thick, so this is not a dainty build, and if crowding is a problem, then the Nock's original defective design will be a no-go.
Do you have experience with the RE Davis version? RE Davis Company | "Late English" Flintlock

 

[rich pierce]

In summary, “Don’t Nock it if you haven’t tried it!”

Sorry, could not resist.
In my experience, the performance of locks of flintlock guns can be highly variable. There are refinements and features we like to see, but the bottom line is ignition.

There are unrefined locks that are reliable. They may wear out flints quickly, or give trigger rattles, or have gaps between pan cover and pan, contribute to too heavy a trigger pull due to a bullish sear spring, and so on, but they will spark reliably. I will choose such locks and work on them when a specific style is needed. Kibler, Chambers, Davis, L&R, and so on do not make a big Dutch flintllock or a dog lock or a snaphaunce or a multitude of other locks, so it’s not always the case that one picks among the best performing locks for a project.

But, if you are not constrained by style, it pays to spend another $50-100 on a great lock if it goes with your building plans. I know it all adds up to a lot of money for a build.

 

[pamtnman]

In summary, “Don’t Nock it if you haven’t tried it!”

Sorry, could not resist.
In my experience, the performance of locks of flintlock guns can be highly variable. There are refinements and features we like to see, but the bottom line is ignition.

There are unrefined locks that are reliable. They may wear out flints quickly, or give trigger rattles, or have gaps between pan cover and pan, contribute to too heavy a trigger pull due to a bullish sear spring, and so on, but they will spark reliably. I will choose such locks and work on them when a specific style is needed. Kibler, Chambers, Davis, L&R, and so on do not make a big Dutch flintllock or a dog lock or a snaphaunce or a multitude of other locks, so it’s not always the case that one picks among the best performing locks for a project.

But, if you are not constrained by style, it pays to spend another $50-100 on a great lock if it goes with your building plans. I know it all adds up to a lot of money for a build.

I hear ya, Rich, and you give good general guidance. The question I face is whether to buy the best lock available that kind of looks like what I am after, or do I buy good stylistic looks with some real work needed to make it perform properly? I hunt a lot with my flintlocks, like a lot. They have to work flawlessly, and with this new planned British Sporting Rifle build, I am hoping to attain perfection or close enough in every piece so that the hunting part, which comes down to the trigger pull, goes exactly right. The lock must contribute to a perfect trigger pull, and it must never function in a way where it occasionally goes "oops, how did that happen?"

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have never used one of L.C.'s locks. But, I have seen them and handled them. They reflect an export design as do all the other late English locks on the market. They all work great for post 1800 American guns, best English locks they aren't. There is nothing on the market that compares with actual 1800 to 1820's British locks.
For early period rifles, 1760-1770's, both Chambers and Kibler have some nice choices. Their round faced locks and Chambers early Ketland are great locks.

 

[pamtnman]

Log Cabin Shop AKA RE Davis (the two merged) sent me these photos today, of their "Late English" lock. The front is the waterproof pan look I am after. There is no lip seal around the bottom of the frizzen like there is on the Rice Nock lock. The internals look familiar to me but I am not knowledgeable enough to judge their merits. Are these the same movement / internal parts as the Siler lock?

 

[rich pierce]

Those are not Siler internals.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Nope.

 

[pamtnman]

Here is the internal view of Jim Kibler's Late Ketland (it is amazingly polished and refined)

 

[pamtnman]

Another view of Jim Kibler's beautiful work

 

[th1840]

Here is the internal view of Jim Kibler's Late Ketland (it is amazingly polished and refined)
View attachment 208920

Plus the mainspring doesn't belly like the Davis, Jim's are elegant and even better functions as a top guality should. Kudos to Jim and his continued hard work to produce the best

 

[mike54]

Here is the internal view of Jim Kibler's Late Ketland (it is amazingly polished and refined)
View attachment 208920

I have one here as i'm working on my smr and they are one of the smoothest locks i have ever had. i have used siler' l&r and davis.

 

[dave_person]

Hi PAmtmman,
Don't get mislead by the notion of a "waterproof" pan. It may seem that rain would be the killer and diverting it somehow the solution but the hydroscopic nature of black powder is such that it is the humidity with rain or snow that dampens the powder. No pan design protects against that humidity. I too like the separate pan idea of the Davis lock but with respect to performance, Jim Kibler's late flintlock will be the best you will encounter among modern made locks. As I described in my link, you can turn the Davis lock into one that is very close to a fine original English lock but it takes work and know-how. I have a original English fowler made in the 1820s by Fields. It is a very good quality gun but nothing like the Mantons, Purdeys, Richards, Nocks, etc of its day. That modest and generic quality lock puts every modern-made commercial flintlock to shame except for those by Kibler and Laubach.

dave

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

My motto when it comes to flintlocks : If it's raining stay home. 35 years ago I shot at a club where they shot rain or shine. On rainy days it was guns with flintlocks that were the only ones left functional on the line.

 

[sdilts]

I've built 4 rifles with this lock and have #5 waiting in the wings. Everyone has been pleased with it. I had no issues at all with inletting it. My personal rifle that I use in our monthly shooting match (the one with the patchbox) has this lock. It's very fast and goes bang every time. It's also easy on flints. The ash stock rifle below also belongs to a member of our club and he is tickled to death with it. We have had other shooters comment on how fast this lock is. We shoot rain or shine. This is a very good lock.