john armstrong
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 92
- Reaction score
- 0
How many of you guys actualy build guns from scratch: carve your own stocks, form your own brass, fabricate double set triggers, locks, barrels etc?
Rifle craftsmen
- Thread starter john armstrong
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I have made everything except the barrel. Doesn't pay, and people do not tend to appreciate it any more than if it was all bought parts. Well even if they do it still doesn't pay. :haha:
my avatar pic pistol was made from scrap metal.
my avatar pic pistol was made from scrap metal.
Guest
I have done several, barrels and all.
I came to the realization that Jim Chambers, Rice, Davis and the guys at Pecontica River make a better part cheaper than I do.
Few of us can command a weeks' pay for a lock it takes us a week to build. "He!! I can buy three Renigades for the price of that lock!" is usually what we hear.
[Read the archives here. There are some people that get absolutely viscious when you start talking $3,000-$5,000 for a gun it took six months to build. (Most of those same guys will shaft some little old lady $500 for a half days work fixing a furnace!) Rifle building is a sport and they feel expert builders should make their wares as a free contribution to society.]
The break-off point seems to be between $500 and $700. At $500 you get a factory gun and normally hear "It's a good buy for the money, excellent workmanship." for the average gun. At $700 for the semi-custom guns you start hearing "It should have been better for the good money I paid!"
I built the first one from scratch to prove I could. I built the rest to fill some specific need. If I make them I keep them.
Most of the origional rifle builders made the same decision. Very few of them made all of their parts from scratch. They bought from vendors when they could and them that were good at one phase often specialized in construction of that part. Dickert made way more locks than he did guns and most southern rifles require a cheap import lock before anyone will accept them as authentic.
I came to the realization that Jim Chambers, Rice, Davis and the guys at Pecontica River make a better part cheaper than I do.
Few of us can command a weeks' pay for a lock it takes us a week to build. "He!! I can buy three Renigades for the price of that lock!" is usually what we hear.
[Read the archives here. There are some people that get absolutely viscious when you start talking $3,000-$5,000 for a gun it took six months to build. (Most of those same guys will shaft some little old lady $500 for a half days work fixing a furnace!) Rifle building is a sport and they feel expert builders should make their wares as a free contribution to society.]
The break-off point seems to be between $500 and $700. At $500 you get a factory gun and normally hear "It's a good buy for the money, excellent workmanship." for the average gun. At $700 for the semi-custom guns you start hearing "It should have been better for the good money I paid!"
I built the first one from scratch to prove I could. I built the rest to fill some specific need. If I make them I keep them.
Most of the origional rifle builders made the same decision. Very few of them made all of their parts from scratch. They bought from vendors when they could and them that were good at one phase often specialized in construction of that part. Dickert made way more locks than he did guns and most southern rifles require a cheap import lock before anyone will accept them as authentic.
Not trying to hijack the thread, here, but it isn't just the rifle builders who suffer--it's all craftsmen.
I am a tailor producing authentic looking garments for reenactors. (I say 'authentic looking' because they are machine sewn.) I have paid my dues, just like any craftsman, by spending years developing the skills and gaining the experience to be able to make a good looking, durable, well fitting garment. I have spent years gathering patterns and tweaking them for fit and authenticity.
When I went into the business, my goal to offer a good selection of items for a reasonable price, so the 'average guy' could afford a good looking kit, and all of it made to the customer's measurements. When I go to trade fairs, rondys, etc, I look through the offereings of other traders to see what's out there. More and more I see imports from latin america and asia or other commercially made garments, some poorly made and others with glaringly obvious non-period styling. this is what I have to compete with! :cursing:
And the same thing happens to other craftsmen; the rifle maker, the blacksmith, the bag maker, the tinsmith--we're all feeling it.
On the other hand, I do want to express my thanks to those customers, and I hope we all have some, who appreciate the craftsmanship and effort and experience that goes into our goods. There are some out there and they are jewels!
Sorry for the rant; calming down now.
Regards,
I am a tailor producing authentic looking garments for reenactors. (I say 'authentic looking' because they are machine sewn.) I have paid my dues, just like any craftsman, by spending years developing the skills and gaining the experience to be able to make a good looking, durable, well fitting garment. I have spent years gathering patterns and tweaking them for fit and authenticity.
When I went into the business, my goal to offer a good selection of items for a reasonable price, so the 'average guy' could afford a good looking kit, and all of it made to the customer's measurements. When I go to trade fairs, rondys, etc, I look through the offereings of other traders to see what's out there. More and more I see imports from latin america and asia or other commercially made garments, some poorly made and others with glaringly obvious non-period styling. this is what I have to compete with! :cursing:
And the same thing happens to other craftsmen; the rifle maker, the blacksmith, the bag maker, the tinsmith--we're all feeling it.
On the other hand, I do want to express my thanks to those customers, and I hope we all have some, who appreciate the craftsmanship and effort and experience that goes into our goods. There are some out there and they are jewels!
Sorry for the rant; calming down now.
Regards,
I'm with you guys. Most folks can't afford to pay for scratch built locks, barrels, etc and there's no need to do it but onc't, sort of for the experience. I make parts I need to make in order to craft guns that are unique. Otherwise, the parts selection is so good nowadays there's no need, and the customer won't pay for the extra work anyway. There will always be a SMALL market for those who want something unique, high quality, done the old way. But few indeed will pay $100 extra for me to forge all the screws and bolts I could buy for $6.
Gunsmiths in the flintlock era almost never made locks and barrels. It was rare indeed, as labor in Europe was much, much cheaper than here. and they could buy it cheaper than they could make it. Many times they even bought castings. They would rifle barrels, re-rifle barrels, bore barrels out, etc, but not many forged barrels.
here's an example of parts I'd make myself, because they are not available for the style of gun I wanted to make. Nothing close to this guard is available in soft cast brass. So I heavily modified a Reeves Goehring casting. The buttplate on the original on which this rifle is based is made of sheet brass, formed by the smith, so I did the same there, too.
Gunsmiths in the flintlock era almost never made locks and barrels. It was rare indeed, as labor in Europe was much, much cheaper than here. and they could buy it cheaper than they could make it. Many times they even bought castings. They would rifle barrels, re-rifle barrels, bore barrels out, etc, but not many forged barrels.
here's an example of parts I'd make myself, because they are not available for the style of gun I wanted to make. Nothing close to this guard is available in soft cast brass. So I heavily modified a Reeves Goehring casting. The buttplate on the original on which this rifle is based is made of sheet brass, formed by the smith, so I did the same there, too.
john armstrong
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 92
- Reaction score
- 0
Like all great artists; maybe our work will be worth something when we're dead. I don't do any of this for monetary gain. But, I see the points you all have made. The utilitarian cround will never appreciate your work. I have dealt in the horse business off and on for quite a few years. People still spend $15,000-2.5mil for an animal that, I myself, see no value in. People still buy $50,000 SUVs when a $16,000 mini van will get the job done. The money is out there. If we were going to make money doing this we would need to attract the correct people to our events. What attracts people to collecting or anything? You guys are preserving an important part of our heritage.
The people with the really big money can best be approached through high-end craft shows, where you present yourself as an artist, re-creating an American art form. If they have an interest in colonial America, if that is their decor, they may think a rifle would be nice for the fireplace. I don't want to do that, preferring to work for customers who know something of the craft. Don't want to compete with potters and silversmiths and..... etc at fancy high brow shows. But it can work.
Caywood tapped into this with his Davy Crockett replica, all fancy and with a signature plate etc in the patchbox. It makes it easy for the new owner to say to a guest, friend, or family member, "I have a replica of the first rifle Davy Crockett carried!" All in a presentation case, etc. That's smart marketing of a fine product.
Caywood tapped into this with his Davy Crockett replica, all fancy and with a signature plate etc in the patchbox. It makes it easy for the new owner to say to a guest, friend, or family member, "I have a replica of the first rifle Davy Crockett carried!" All in a presentation case, etc. That's smart marketing of a fine product.
Hey Guys,
I can and have handcrafted every part of a rifle. Now I handcraft a few pieces and buy the rest from quality suppliers. I always stock from a blank as that allows me the freedom to build in the archetecture that is needed rather than be confined by what someone else thinks is the proper archecture.
Getting paid for your labors building rifles is nothing compared to building and selling powder horns. "Heck, anyone can build a powder horn." Yea right! There is a lot of time involved and experience needed to build a quaity powder horn, but everyone thinks you hack them out in a couple of hours.
Randy Hedden
I can and have handcrafted every part of a rifle. Now I handcraft a few pieces and buy the rest from quality suppliers. I always stock from a blank as that allows me the freedom to build in the archetecture that is needed rather than be confined by what someone else thinks is the proper archecture.
Getting paid for your labors building rifles is nothing compared to building and selling powder horns. "Heck, anyone can build a powder horn." Yea right! There is a lot of time involved and experience needed to build a quaity powder horn, but everyone thinks you hack them out in a couple of hours.
Randy Hedden
Why was this question asked when the answer is quite evident in this modern age? I don't have a forge and surely wouldn't make a barrel and really don't want to cast TGs and BPs because I take "short cuts" as did most of the original builders by purchasing these items. I start w/ a blank, make the RR pipes, trigger plate, trigger, muzzle cap, side plate, patchbox and release mechanism, front and rear sights and the few inlays I use. The barrel, TG and BP are always purchased, modified and the end product isn't "harmed" using these "store bought" items. I'm retired and derive a whole lot of pleasure building LRs and "Hawkens" and the people that buy my rifles really don't care if some of the items are purchased. This isn't a reply of criticism for the initial poster because he asks a question that illustrates a quandry....how far does a builder go to emulate the "old timers"?....Fred
It may sound crazy, but I enjoy carving my own stocks by hand .Maybe it's the quite I like.
I work with power tools all day and to running and haulerin' youngin's at home ,
hand tools are nice and quite.
If I start to work by candle light and soft music I'll be sure to get some help!!!!
I buy the best parts I can find and loacte my own wood.that makes the job and the out come that much more enjoyable.
Like I've asked the guy I used to work for "how many silk purse's did you expect to get from this pig's ear anyhow??"
I work with power tools all day and to running and haulerin' youngin's at home ,
hand tools are nice and quite.
If I start to work by candle light and soft music I'll be sure to get some help!!!!
I buy the best parts I can find and loacte my own wood.that makes the job and the out come that much more enjoyable.
Like I've asked the guy I used to work for "how many silk purse's did you expect to get from this pig's ear anyhow??"
Its a case of pure ecomomics. Even the old timers
bought locks and barrels etc because the demands
for guns was so great they couldn't keep up if they had to make everything. I started out that way,even made a rifling machine..too much. I could
buy a barrel for a tenth of the price it cost me to make them..Finally, I even gave up on locks...
with excepton of miquelet's,wheel locks and snap
haunces...I now build for my own satisfaction,,because you can't sell it.
bought locks and barrels etc because the demands
for guns was so great they couldn't keep up if they had to make everything. I started out that way,even made a rifling machine..too much. I could
buy a barrel for a tenth of the price it cost me to make them..Finally, I even gave up on locks...
with excepton of miquelet's,wheel locks and snap
haunces...I now build for my own satisfaction,,because you can't sell it.
Many Klatch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- May 19, 2006
- Messages
- 3,498
- Reaction score
- 269
I have built three guns starting with a plank of wood and the metal parts. The first one was so ugly that after a couple of years I took the metal parts off and used it for firewood. The other two I still have and shoot.
It is a whole lot easier to put together a kit and let someone else do the rough stock forming and inletting.
Back in the day, the gun builders had apprentices and helpers doing all the scut work. I don't know why paying someone else do the scut work today is any different than paying someone 200 years ago.
I think that you should do at least one gun from scratch just so you can appreciate how hard it is. Most custom builders I know are way underpaid. If they did't love building guns, they could make more money elsewhere for less effort
Many Klatch
It is a whole lot easier to put together a kit and let someone else do the rough stock forming and inletting.
Back in the day, the gun builders had apprentices and helpers doing all the scut work. I don't know why paying someone else do the scut work today is any different than paying someone 200 years ago.
I think that you should do at least one gun from scratch just so you can appreciate how hard it is. Most custom builders I know are way underpaid. If they did't love building guns, they could make more money elsewhere for less effort
Many Klatch
I average about three guns per year. I have made numerous locks from kits and I prefer to rifle my own barrels. Getting the blanks can be difficult.
I can make a variety of odds and ends like patchboxes, springs, inlays, toeplates, thimbles and the like....but I have never taken on the task of making my own lock from scratch....
Stocking the piece is different, I ussually purchase wood in the form of a plank from which I can cut my own patterns.
At the moment I'm working on about four guns in a variety of completion.
I can make a variety of odds and ends like patchboxes, springs, inlays, toeplates, thimbles and the like....but I have never taken on the task of making my own lock from scratch....
Stocking the piece is different, I ussually purchase wood in the form of a plank from which I can cut my own patterns.
At the moment I'm working on about four guns in a variety of completion.
flashpanner
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2004
- Messages
- 564
- Reaction score
- 0
I bought my lock as a kit, and purchased barrel w/tang. Everything else, including double set, double lever trigger is hand made. Did "cheat" with drilling holes. I did use a drill press,sorry. Stock is a precarve, no inlets, this is my first project. Next time I'll use a rough blank.
I talked to the folks at Track of The Wolf a few weeks ago. They told me that most of the guns they sell are from $1500.00 & up. They are selling guns to people with money. The high end craft shows are a good idea. Cater to the people with the money like Caywwod, Hays, & Ehinger do. You can't make money selling to the CVA, ERA, TVM crowd.
Similar threads
