Rifle shooting questions

During a range session, which is preferable, a three shot group, or five shot group as a measure of how a rifle is performing? Do you shoot a fouling shot before testing for group? Finally, how much difference is there in performance between a square and a round patch? Does one type consistently deliver better accuracy than the other?I've been shooting blackpowder for about 20 years, and flintlocks (a smoothbore) for about 4 years, and I've only been shooting a flintlock rifle for a couple of months, so I hope my rifle questions are not TOO inmature......THANKS!

 

[RussB]

All good questions Longbarrel50. I'm not the one with the real answer, but like everyone else I do have my own thoughts about it.
I, personally, would prefer a five shot group over a three shot group. Yes, I do shoot a "fouler"....Why? Somebody said that was the thing to do, I guess.
Square vs Round patches. I am not astute enough to see ANY differences when I'm the one doing the shooting.

There may well be some very good answers to your questions, but I would be careful in picking out the one I wanted to stick to...you just may want to change your mind. Somebody will come along here pretty soon and set us straight, I feel sure.
Respectfully, Russ

 

Round patches, square patches...doesn't matter, they're both a patch and if it's the correct material and correct thickness one will perform as well as the other. Three shot versus five shot group.....well, one could throw a lot of variables in there. My first question is always, "what is the purpose of the rifle?". If it's strictly a hunting rifle I believe three shot groups more than adequate. How many shots are us front stuffers likely to get at game? If it's a target rifle five shot groups are woefully inadequate. One of the most interesting things I ever read regarding rifles of any kind was a composite group shot over a couple week period. One target was posted and another target of the same kind posted over the first. A five shot group was fired once a day for two weeks and only the top target was changed. After two weeks the "composite" group of the back target was examined and th results tallied. It was quite interesting to see how large the composite group was as compared to a particular group fired on a particular day. As I remember the rifle itself was quite accurate at one setting. It was quite accurate over the entire course but if one was to look at the composite group that particular rifle did not appear to be that accurate. I've always wanted to do a similar thing but circumstances over the last few years have prevented such. I hope to in the near future.

I always fire a fouling shot.......just cuz....

Vic

 

[Slowpoke]

Shoot a 5 shot groups over a series of days before you think about moving your sites. Draw a very small black square on a white piece of paper and aim for the bottom of the square where the white meets the black. This gives you a good contrast and the square is easier than a circle. I say do this over a series of days because things change.. light, wind, etc.

Fowling shot? sure why not... just remember to clean after it and do the same thing when you hunt.

Square or round patch ??? it doesn't matter.... you are cuting the patch at the muzzle aren't you !!! Don't use precut patches, you can't get them centered the same way everytime. Cut your patches at the muzzle.

The main thing with shooting a flintlock well is a very light trigger. I mean VERY light!! If it's heavy, you have a tendancy to pull your shots to the right. Also follow through with your shot, I can say this strongly enough. Don't be in a hurry to drop the gun to see where the shot went, hold it through the recoil.

Finally, shooting a flintlock will make you a better shot. Honestly, it will. You will learn to hold steady and you will see a difference in the other rifles you shoot.

S'Poke

 

[roundball]

Don't use precut patches, you can't get them centered the same way everytime.

Just to give some balance to this statement, that hasn't been my experience at all...I've used precut/prelubed patches for 15 years...and for the past couple of years in particular I've gone to the range most every Saturday year round...a few thousand shots also using precut/prelubed patches...no problem at all centering the ball, accuracy is perfect.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Have to agree with, "roundball"... I've never had any trouble with precut patches, round or square...

For hunting, you should clean the bore between shots. Remember, your shot is going to come from a clean barrel...

For target shooting, foul the barrel at least once, twice if allowed, then swab between shots...

Three or five shot groups is up to you. I like five shot groups simply because I, like so many other's, do more target shooting then hunting and normally five shots is what an official relay consist of...

 

Immature???? I hardly think so.
Now the guy that poo-poo'd Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil as being a lousy lube because it gummed up his .22 auto pistol....well that was a dunce! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:
CUT YOUR PATCHES AT THE MUZZLE. Why? 'Cause I do and that's what everyone here brow beat me into doing.
5 shot groups are always better'n 3 shot.
Ain't no difference between square or round patches 'cept fer tha shape.
NO FOULING SHOT!
Your first shot at game is likely to be from clean bore, so.......SWAB between shots for a consistant barrel conditon.
Don't get lazy on this point.
I'm an unrepentant swabber. So swab. Why? 'Cause I do.
It's proven scientific fact that you get uniform ballistics and better accuracy if you swab the same way between shots.
Many here DO NOT swab. I can only say :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:.
Now swab or go to your room and don't come out till you agree to swab!
I've only been shooting a flinter for a year now. That makes been an EX Spert, that's a has been drip. :haha: :haha: :haha:
I really, really hope you have a sense of humor. ::
By the way, I'm the ONLY poster here that tells the truth. The other guys stretch everything. :what:

 

[Packdog]

I'm relativley new to black powder shooting but have shot round patches and square patches both. I have never seen a difference myself... provided the ball has patching marterial between it and the barrel, or centered. I have seen much difference between the different thicknesses of patching material and lube you use. I do not use a fouling shot but always wipe the bore prior to shooting to remove excess oil and grease and wipe between every shot, that may make a difference regarding the need for a fouling shot? Welcome to the wonderful world of flintlock rifles!
Packdog

 

[Slowpoke]

I too have used precut patches and I always found it hard to get them center right and proper. Maybe I was using to close to ball size patch, I don't know. If you cut your patces at the muzzle you always know that your patch is centered and you don't have access patch material around the ball. Plus, you get to carry a really cool patch knife... Oh yeah and swab between you shots <snicker>

S'Poke

 

[roundball]

::

My precut/prelubed patches are always centered and I don't have excess patch material issues

::

 

[Packdog]

Slowpoke,
I've had the same problem from time to time depending on who makes the precut patches. Some are like for .32 to .40 and some are .40 to .50 or something like that? Anyway I have always had problems when my caliber is on the top of the range. I tried .54 cal. patches in the .40 a couple of weeks back. The excess tended to catch on my short start jag and would actually pull the ball back up when I removed the starter. So to much patch can be bad for loading but I still saw no difference in POI.
Packdog

 

[Stumpkiller]

Longbarrel50,

By now you should be seeing a pattern. Muzzleloaders, flintlock rifles especially, are like many cooks preparing cakes. We all know what the outcome should be, but we all have a different approach to achieve that end result. You'll find something that works for you, and that's what matters.

I like cutting patches at the muzzle (or, even better, using a ball-block) and I know the patch is always centered and exactly the right size and shape. As Roundball points out, a pre-cut can be centered just as well in the same amount of time. I've known guys who've spoiled a day's hunt by slicing their thumb near off with a patch-knife. Some folks just don't have good luck with sharp instruments.

Five shot groups are better for showing both the gun's abilities and your own, even though sometimes the results aren't pleasing. Stumpy's Postulate to Murphy's Law: "The last shot taken will be the group spoiler."

To foul or not to foul? Wipe every shot? Depends greatly on what you require in accuracy and what lube you're using, tightness of ball/patch to barrel, rifling profile, temperature, humidity, a hundred other things. I've cooked up a lube that allows dozens of shots without the need to wipe, but accuracy suffers. So, for me, the convenience of three shots between wipes is working out with "pleasing" results on target. When I get in a match where there are eight "skeets" or gongs on a timed course, I ain't gotta wipe and that's great.

When I get ready for a hunt/shooting I wipe the bore with a dry cleaning patch, followed by a lightly lubed patch. This coats the bore evenly with lube. After every shot, the patched ball pushes the fouling down, also leaving a lightly lubed bore. This has resulted in less difference between a "cold" and a fouled bore for first shot point-of-impact. It also makes the gun easier to clean at the end of the day. :results: When you cook, you grease the pan first. Same principle.


Muzzleloading Tip #47: If you use a screw-on jag to hold a cleaning patch - poke a hole in one corner with a vent pick or patch knife and thread the jag onto the ramrod through that hole. You'll never loose the patch in the barrel that way.

 

I use both pre-cut and stips of cloth cut at the muzzle. I have no problems with either & feel perhaps it's just a problem of patches too small or lack of practise. Poor eyesight can be hindrance here as well.
: Any time you use a good strong patch, like Denim, but cut at the muzzle, have a look at one that's been fired. IT will be square with rounded corners, not round. Some cloth weaves lack the integrity to maintain shape after being fired & will show a round shape.
: Why would you say to swab between your shots? That just promotes large Standard Deviations(velocity variations) and hangfires.

 

Daryl,
I never remember picking up a patch cut at the muzzle that was not a perfect circle. That is why I muzzle cut the patches, to center the ball in the patch and have a circular patch. You may get out of round patches when you cut at the muzzle on those gas pipe smoothbores you guys are addicted too, but the patches from all of my guns, .28 to 14 bore, come out round. Check the circle that remains when you cut the patch from the strip of fabric.

Are you guys shooting those square bored infadel killers and lubing the patches with hog lard again? That is very bad for PR and not politically correct! :imo:

 

[roundball]

By now you should be seeing a pattern. Muzzleloaders, flintlock rifles especially, are like many cooks preparing cakes. We all know what the outcome should be, but we all have a different approach to achieve that end result.

And that's really a very important point...if there's one thing I've learned since getting deep into muzzleloading, it's that there are so many variables that we really have to guard against making generalized statements as if they're absolutes across the board, because they usually are not.

My intent here, by the way, is not to draw attention to any individual, only to use this discussion about precut vs. muzzle cut patches as an good example. One individual might have had a bad experience but probably should say that THEY had trouble centering a ball on precut patches, so it doesn't come across that all precut patches, or all individuals, experience this...because unfortunately, a newbie reads it, accepts it as fact, then repeats it a dozen times on other boards, etc, and the misinformation grows.

On this very point as a test one day, I took a 2.5" round TC prelubed cleaning & seasoning patch, centered a ball on it, folded over the enormous amount of excess material on top of it, seated it, and drilled the target with it just as if it had been a standard shooting patch...it opened up like a parachute and fluttered to the ground only a few feet in front of the muzzle.

Influences such as patch size vs. ball caliber, individual dexterity, whether the barrel has a false muzzle or not, etc, etc, etc...can all contribute to whether or not a ball gets centered on any precut patch...so blanket statements are rarely ever true across the board, about this or anything.

Kind of like the old wives tale that 1:48" twist barrels don't shoot round balls well !!!!!!!!

::

 

[Stumpkiller]

Kind of like the old wives tale that 1:48" twist barrels don't shoot round balls well !!!!!!!!

Ah, the old twist dilema.

Here's the secret: ( 1:48" in .50 & .54 shoots well at lower velocities).

Conversly, if you've got a 1:66" in .50 or .54 that is not doing well on paper, try uping the powder charge, and using FFg if you're not already.

 

[roundball]

Here's the secret: ( 1:48" in .50 & .54 shoots well at lower velocities).

Here's another secret:
My .50cal and .54cal 1:48" barrels are outstanding using 90grns Goex FFFg, Oxyoke wonderwad, .018" pillow ticking, and Hornady round balls.
::

 

Thanks for all of the info guys. It helps to confirm some of what I've been thinking. When I shoot my smoothbore, I use patches that I pre-cut (square) and lube with 1000+ lube. I don't use a fouling shot, and I don't worry about wiping until after the 5th. shot, as shot #6 normally takes some effort to load. For my rifle, (like the smoothbore) I wipe the barrel dry prior to shooting. I then proceed to shoot, and wipe between shots. With the exception of the first shot, the rest of the shots will usually go into one ragged hole. Mind you, this is for standing off-hand shooting (I don't do any benching.....personal preference). I was used to shooting a 10 shot group (habit....been shooting CAS for 15 years), but I think I will settle on a five shot group (after the first fouling shot) to determine just what me, and the rifle and load are doing.Ignition wise, I can usually get 99% ignition. For the few (very few) that don't go, I never get a flash in the pan, and I've found that I will have ignition failure for two reasons: One, because the flint is worn down, or two, the flint will eventually loosen in the jaws after a while. To remedy, it's usually just a simple matter for me to tighten the jaws back up, re-cock the piece, and continue shooting.On another note, I'm going to the Contemporary Longrifle Association show tomorrow in Lexington! Never been before, should be pretty cool. I make pouches, and I would like to have some expert pouch makers look at my work and give me an idea as to how much I can charge for them when I decide to start doing that as a sideline.....Talk to you all later!!!