Rifled musket???

[sportster73hp]

I thought i purchased a third model 1816 contract musket. Problem is , it has rifling in the bore. It is counterbored about four inches, then spiral rifling. It has a flintlock by A Waters 1835 Millbury. Matching 1835 stamp on barrel tang. TW over P stamped opposite side of barrel from the lock. Looks identical to one at Rock island auction.
My question is would they have made one with rifling ?replacement barrel ?
It only has a front sight and bayo lug

 

[sportster73hp]

 

[Zonie]

It's very possible your 1816 was rebarreled in the 1850's at an armory.
According to the article below, Harpers Ferry made .69 caliber rifled Minie' ball barrels to update older muskets.

https://www.historynet.com/minie-ball

 

[sportster73hp]

Thanks Zonie. I also found sometime around 1834-1835 they were built new with rifling. Lots of internet time today. Too hot outside

 

[Zonie]

The first thing I checked was what it said in "Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms...and their value" 9th edition.

That is perhaps the most authoritative book in existence that gives some of the history, a description of important features and the values (at the time) for American guns.

Based on what he says for value the flintlock version of the 1816 Contract Musket is high because most of the ones that were in good condition at the time were converted to the percussion system. To quote from page 553,

"Model 1816 Flintlock Musket, Type III' a.k.a. "National Armory Bright;" made 1831-44. Features additional of a strengthened device of ball shape to front section of trigger guard bow (area of sling swivel). bright finish standard. More of this type were converted to percussion than Type II, hence flintlock specimens are very scarce, if not rare:
Values - Good $2,500 Fine $7,000
As above; converted to percussion
Values - Good $600 Fine $900.

It then goes on to list many different contract makers and the values of the guns they made.

Strangely, the book does not mention what the value of a 1816 Contract Musket would be if it had been reworked to incorporate a rifled barrel. That surprised me because I know that .69 caliber Minie' balls were made specifically to be used in rifled conversions of the older, outdated muskets.

This edition of the book was published in 2007. Using the inflation calculating tools available on the web and ignoring the changes in value due to what collectors will pay, $2,500 is equal to $3,184 and $7,000 is equal to $8,915 today.

 

[sportster73hp]

And i thought i overpaid. It is marked 1835. I think i can say i paid $1700 . If not please delete

 

[BEP]

*

 

[hawkeye2]

There are some things that don't jive with that gun. No armory would have rifled a barrel and then counter bored the muzzle end after or rifled it without doing the last 4 or so inches. 2nd., the first smoothbore to receive rifling was the 1842 which was made with a thicker barrel so that it could be rifled at a later date. The barrels on the earlier models were considered too thin to have grooves cut in them. Any gun that was rifled or received a rifled barrel would have been converted to percussion first and would have a rear sight. Regardless of whether it was a smoothbore or one that was rifled at a later date the caliber remained at .69 in US or CS service.

 

[sportster73hp]

i bought it today. Just trying to figure it out.
The counterbore was probably an attempt to extend the service life. I have two mausers this was done to. With a steel ramrod rubbing the bore stuff happens

 

[hawkeye2]

No Civil War and pre Civil War firearms were ever "repaired" by smoothboring a section at the muzzle. I have seen this on 20th. century rifles and I have a Mosin Nagant that had this done while in Finnish service.

 

[Zonie]

Here's what Flayderman's says about the 1816 made by A Waters (in case you don't have the book).

"A. Waters, Jr., Millbury, Mass; 36,500 made, c. 1817-36. Types I, II, and III configurations.

Early production Waters, the lockplate marking a script US over MULLBURY, and the date (either 1816 or 1818) vertically bgehind hammer; about 5,000 produced.

Second type Waters; the lockplate marking an American eagle motif above script US, and A. WATERS/(date) vertically behind hammer. About 10,000 made:

Third type Waters; lockplate marking of US/A.WATERS in center and vertically stamped behind hammer; MILLBURY/(date) about 21,560 produced.
Values--Good $1,400 Fine $2,400.

As above converted to percussion
Values--Good $575 Fine $750. "

Remember, the values are in 2007 dollars.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

The mainspring is a modern replacement, so it is a very distinct possibility that your musket was percussion converted, subsequently rifled, and then in the 20th century reconverted to flintlock by a collector.
If you pull the lock take a photo of the vent area and barrel quadrant above it. Look at the lock internals and see if all of the parts have the same mating number or symbol on them and check the fit and finish of the pan.

 

[sportster73hp]

Lock was cleaned by me with sonic washer and mild soap

 

[sportster73hp]

Seller told me her husband sent lock to Dixie for repair. I know the frizzen was replaced, still not hardened. I believe the top jaw and screw are also new as the screw needed fitted( too long). Jaw may be original as it looks worn

 

[gemmer]

A number of 1816s were converted to percussion and rifled with three wide lands and grooves. However, they were fitted with new patent style breeches in the manner of the H&P conversion or the Remington which used a Maynard tape primer lock similar to the 1855 lock. Most if not all received a rear sight, although in the case of rifled 1842s, a number did not.The rifling was progressive depth and at the muzzle was very shallow which may leave you to think that yours is counterbored. It could also be worn at the muzzle. No 1816s were factory built with rifled barrels. Rifled ones were conversions using the existing barrel with a new breech. Having said all that, your barrel still retains an original flint breech which is puzzling. A couple of possibilities. It may have been rifled by a Confederate armory, but left in flint configuration, or converted to percussion using a drum threaded into the barrel where the touch hole was. Lack of a rear sight does not rule out that possibility. Also it could have at some time been converted back to flint by removing the patent breech and substituting it with a flint breech plug and reconverting the lock. If your barrel is shorter than 42", that could be the answer. If so it was done by a previous owner, not by the military. Finding an original flint breech plug with an 1835 date to match the lock plate is not that hard.

 

[sportster73hp]

I checked the barrel length after work today. It is 42 inches exactly.
I appreciate the help/ advice i have received on this gun. It isn’t one that was on my got to have list and had not researched it until after the purchase.

 

[springfield art]

I thought i purchased a third model 1816 contract musket. Problem is , it has rifling in the bore. It is counterbored about four inches, then spiral rifling. It has a flintlock by A Waters 1835 Millbury. Matching 1835 stamp on barrel tang. TW over P stamped opposite side of barrel from the lock. Looks identical to one at Rock island auction.
My question is would they have made one with rifling ?replacement barrel ?
It only has a front sight and bayo lug View attachment 37233

Some of those muskets were rifled & converted to Percussion. Maybe yours was simply updated with rifling?

 

[JamesT]

Very nice nonetheless. Keep us updated on what you find. It is very interesting.

 

[FlinterNick]

Some 1816 conversion muskets had their barrels rifled, these were called Greenville Muskets. It was a special project to see if the 1816 muskets barrels could maintain structural integrity after being rifled, many failed.

1816 flintlock muskets (Unconverted) were not rifled by the military some muskets that were sold to the public, any type of rifling would have been done in private ownership. Rifling a flintlock smoothbore musket was considered to be an inadequate use of technology as percussion conversions provided a much cheaper, cleaner and surefire ignition system.

The most commonly rifled ’conversion’ musket in the US armories were the 1835 and 1840 Springfields, these were initial made as flintlocks but had one special feature, the barrel was about .5 - 2 MM thicker from bore to breech So that the smoothbore muskets could be cut rifled, using progressive depth rifling.

In the 1730’s the French had experimented with rifling carbines, where the first 4 inches of the bore were smooth to allow the user to ram down paper cartridges.

 

[voltigeur]

I know that in competition, some cheaters have their guns rifled on a part of barrel to participate in the smooth category and be invisible to the referees.
who knows...maybe it's a possibility