Rifleman's cartridge box??

[Joemolf]

EXACTLY!!

Shops in larger towns/cities did carry ball molds in various sizes, but I don't know about trading posts along the frontier. I can't document this, but I bet those shop keepers cast one ball and left it in the mold so customers could try the cast ball in the muzzle/s of their guns. HOWEVER, I just can't see most frontier riflemen going to the expense of two ball molds for his rifle

The way I figure they could have separated two sizes of balls is as follows. The normal size balls would most likely have remained in the rifleman's shot pouch. A small "ball pouch" or "belt pouch" like a lemuel lyman pouch could carry the smaller balls "before" or on a leather waist belt in front of his body for easy and fast access for close in fighting. Below is one by our own Capt. Jas.

View attachment 138325

However, I'm not comfortable at all to suggest they did carry two sizes of balls.

Gus

What to say he wasn’t shot by two different rifles?

 

[Artificer]

What to say he wasn’t shot by two different rifles?

Sorry, I'm not following you? I was discussing the possible use of one rifleman using two different size balls to overcome the fouling in the barrel during combat.

Gus

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

Seems like it would have been easier to change the thickness of the patching rather than carry multiple sized balls.

 

[hawkeye2]

He's only 30 feet away and coming fast, do I use the white ticking with the red stripes or the ticking with blue stripes? I do agree that would be the simplest solution.

In the instance I mentioned in post #16 I believe it was documented that the Indian was shot by only one man.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hello all. Was thinking about this subject and thought I would post a question, and perhaps start a discussion. During the F/I war and Revolutionary war, were rifleman using cartridge boxes, and perhaps prepared cartridges at times?

Ja, natürlich trugen einige Patronenschachteln !

LD

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

If he is 30 feet away it really isn't going to matter what you use.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Seems to me it could be possible, relating back to Marine Corps days we were issued two mag. pouches and 7 mags, one mag stayed in the rifle and the mag. pouches went on the cartridge belt with three mags each, Bear with me on this. On departing for the republic of, our plt. Lt. had us issued another mag. pouch and three extra mags also to be placed on the belt, Ammo issue was adequate to fill all mags which totaled 10 mags. also one stripper clip of ten rounds was issued to be placed in the first aid pouch, was told this was the O s!!t supply. Now I understand this relates not to the period in discussion and size of different round balls for riflemen, Point being if one knew there was a chance of engagement it would be wise to attempt to prepare for all situations one may encounter, Being a colonial rifleman especially one with combat experience you would think past experience would negate proper prepardness, So this brings about the question and documentation of did this happen, perhaps not on a regular basis but would think a knowledgeable rifleman with experience would be of a mind set that he would. Not all but some.

 

[FlinterNick]

Sorry, I'm not following you? I was discussing the possible use of one rifleman using two different size balls to overcome the fouling in the barrel during combat.

Gus

not likely … riflemen were issued one bag mould, would have been much easier to swab out a dirty bore than carry multiple sized balls.

 

[Artificer]

not likely … riflemen were issued one bag mould, would have been much easier to swab out a dirty bore than carry multiple sized balls.

Nick,

I don't think Riflemen carrying two size balls was anywhere close to being common, and at most (if at all) by only a very small number of them and quite possibly almost none or none of them. IOW, I'm leaving open a very uncommon to rare possibility it was done only because it could have been done with the technology of the times.

I emboldened your phrase above not to be critical of you at all, but I suggest it might be confusing to some of the forum. Yes, a mold came with a rifle in the 18th century and almost always from the gunsmith who made the rifle. I think that is what you meant. One might say the gunsmith "issued" the ball mold to the customer, but many people think of the term "issued" in a military context only, as if colonies or local governments or even leaders "issued" them both the rifle and mold - which was not the case for most riflemen.

"would have been much easier to swab out a dirty bore than carry multiple sized balls." Again, I'm not trying to be critical of you at all, but if the Rifleman HAD smaller size balls, he would not have been in the position of having to clean his rifle during a battle. I know the LAST thing I would ever want or have to accept is being defenseless while stopping to swab out the bore in my rifle in the midst of a battle. Now, this in NO way proves riflemen did carry two sizes of balls.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

When I was running the Continental Army camp at the Yorktown Victory Center, I was researching something else and came across an account from a British officer after the Battle of Harlem Heights or Long Island, one of the downstate NY battles. He said that they found dead riflemen with their pouches full of cartridges.
Can I find the stupid reference again all these years later? Not yet.
Jay

I would LOVE to read that quote, should you ever find it again. Now, THAT would be a great piece of documentation to "chew on." Such cartridges may not have been as accurate as individually loading each patched ball, but it sure would have sped up their rate of fire and extremely useful at "musket fire" distances.

Gus

 

[Joemolf]

Sorry, I'm not following you? I was discussing the possible use of one rifleman using two different size balls to overcome the fouling in the barrel during combat.

Gus

Sorry Gus I meant to quote the original agree with your scenario being the corpse could have been shot by two different rifles one of a smaller caliber. I enfact do what you suggest in my Brown Bess. I start with a alarger paper cartridges and then when the fouling is Near the end of the muzzle I use my Charleville cartridges with a smaller ball

 

[Artificer]

Sorry Gus I meant to quote the original agree with your scenario being the corpse could have been shot by two different rifles one of a smaller caliber. I enfact do what you suggest in my Brown Bess. I start with a alarger paper cartridges and then when the fouling is Near the end of the muzzle I use my Charleville cartridges with a smaller ball

No apologies necessary, but thank you for doing so, just the same.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Nick,

I don't think Riflemen carrying two size balls was anywhere close to being common, and at most (if at all) by only a very small number of them and quite possibly almost none or none of them. IOW, I'm leaving open a very uncommon to rare possibility it was done only because it could have been done with the technology of the times.

I emboldened your phrase above not to be critical of you at all, but I suggest it might be confusing to some of the forum. Yes, a mold came with a rifle in the 18th century and almost always from the gunsmith who made the rifle. I think that is what you meant. One might say the gunsmith "issued" the ball mold to the customer, but many people think of the term "issued" in a military context only, as if colonies or local governments or even leaders "issued" them both the rifle and mold - which was not the case for most riflemen.

"would have been much easier to swab out a dirty bore than carry multiple sized balls." Again, I'm not trying to be critical of you at all, but if the Rifleman HAD smaller size balls, he would not have been in the position of having to clean his rifle during a battle. I know the LAST thing I would ever want or have to accept is being defenseless while stopping to swab out the bore in my rifle in the midst of a battle. Now, this in NO way proves riflemen did carry two sizes of balls.

Gus

always A pleasure Gus

I’m beginning research on the US 1803 through Mississippi rifle and am building a derringer rifle and 1795 contract.

my 1803 i use .535 and .525. I’ve tested the 525 and 535 And bees wax with a fould Bore, the result was the almost same with no real benefit to accuracy

from the research I’ve done on riflemen gear (USA)

contract rifles were made with a mould as we’re private guns , yeah that was my point.

the cleaning part I’m thinking out loud from oriskany, Saratoga and north point, riflemen often fought from a distance and in platoons where one reloaded and cleaned while the other made aimed shots.

as far as the ammo, the only thing I could find on this was from the 1803 rifle manual. “Riflemen were issued a bag, horn and smoothed Round balls with a greased rag”.

now this is my own conjecture here but carry two sets of balls might be a critical problem if attention to detail was low.

 

[Artificer]

When I was running the Continental Army camp at the Yorktown Victory Center, I was researching something else and came across an account from a British officer after the Battle of Harlem Heights or Long Island, one of the downstate NY battles. He said that they found dead riflemen with their pouches full of cartridges.
Can I find the stupid reference again all these years later? Not yet.
Jay

Since that battle was so EARLY in the war, September 16, 1776, it sure seems like at least one Officer was "thinking outside the box" to better prepare his men for battle. Not even early in the war, but it seems MOST of the senior commanders never figured out the best ways to use Riflemen, with some exceptions and it sounds like this is a rather new exception for many of us.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

always A pleasure Gus

And the same with you.

now this is my own conjecture here but carry two sets of balls might be a critical problem if attention to detail was low.

YES, I most definitely agree. That's why I suggested the best way to do it would be carrying the smaller sized balls in a "ball bag" or "belt pouch" worn on his belt in front of him. The rifleman's self-taught and natural reaction to reload would be from his "main shot pouch" or what we might call his hunting bag. That would keep the two sized balls separated. In combat, one almost always "goes with" what they know best or have been well trained in, before anything else. He might have even gotten to the point he ran out of balls or could no longer load them and had to stop and think, "Hey, I've got more balls on my waist belt for just this reason." After a while, that response would have become trained/natural as well.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Since that battle was so EARLY in the war, September 16, 1776, it sure seems like at least one Officer was "thinking outside the box" to better prepare his men for battle. Not even early in the war, but it seems MOST of the senior commanders never figured out the best ways to use Riflemen, with some exceptions and it sounds like this is a rather new exception for many of us.

Gus
[/QUOT

riflemen can use cartridges, I do rather than patch.

i think British riflemen used a paper cartridge with a patched round ball wrapped in it.

 

[FlinterNick]

And the same with you.



YES, I most definitely agree. That's why I suggested the best way to do it would be carrying the smaller sized balls in a "ball bag" or "belt pouch" worn on his belt in front of him. The rifleman's self-taught and natural reaction to reload would be from his "main shot pouch" or what we might call his hunting bag. That would keep the two sized balls separated. In combat, one almost always "goes with" what they know best or have been well trained in, before anything else. He might have even gotten to the point he ran out of balls or could no longer load them and had to stop and think, "Hey, I've got more balls on my waist belt for just this reason." After a while, that response would have become trained/natural as well.

Gus

what about buck shot?

I would think for close combat buck would make more sense.

 

[Artificer]

riflemen can use cartridges, I do rather than patch.

i think British riflemen used a paper cartridge with a patched round ball wrapped in it.

Even if they did not have the ball wrapped in a patch in the cartridge, the paper wrapped around the ball would take up some of the "windage" or open room around the ball and thus help accuracy a bit. If the bore got too fouled, then just "pinch" the bare ball out of the cartridge, drop the cartridge down the bore with the ball on top of it and ram it home.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

what about buck shot?

I would think for close combat buck would make more sense.

Maybe and especially if they were using cartridges so there would be something to seal the bore enough to push the balls out a killing/wounding speed.

I have a morbid sense of humor, so I just thought about loading the rifle with bare ball and no patch or cartridge before it and the rifle going off and the ball barely coming out of the bore and falling in front of the Rifleman's feet. However, I don't know that would actually happen. It sounds like an interesting idea to try, to see if it would work, though.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Even if they did not have the ball wrapped in a patch in the cartridge, the paper wrapped around the ball would take up some of the "windage" or open room around the ball and thus help accuracy a bit. If the bore got too fouled, then just "pinch" the bare ball out of the cartridge, drop the cartridge down the bore with the ball on top of it and ram it home.

Gus

All this talking about riflemen, its no wonder the British and Americans favored the smoothbore muskets over rifles.

From 1760-1821 riflemen units were more still in their infancy of development.

The guns themselves were really. Not suited for military use, 6-8 lands and grooves, with deep rifling would not be a favorite with later military standards due to the problems with fouling.

Even the Ferguson Rifle had many drawbacks due to its design and the issue of fouling.

I think the most advanced rifling unit for its time was during hte Mexican American War with the Mississippi Rifle. The 5 groove barrel proved to be very effective in combat when compared to teh common and 1803 rifles that were issue.d