Rifles of the Fur Trade

[Jason holgate]

What would that cost

 

[Mulemauler]

What would that cost

PM Sent

 

[Jason holgate]

Great post

 

[M. De Land]

During the 70's while sitting around the camp fire a frequent topic of discussion, sometimes heated, involved what particular rifles were really the Mountain Man's favorite. During this time just about everyone was convinced that the Hawken rained supreme but when discussing the earlier years, pre 1835, names such as Krider, Leman. Gumph, and Tyron were seldom if ever mentioned. Another name we were blissfully unaware of was John Joseph and later his son James Henry. So much has been learned and documented today that these names should be common knowledge, but unfortunately aren't.

JJ Henry and his son J Henry operated a prosperous gun building firm that was really more factory than shop in Boulton, PA. During the 1820's-50's they were one of the primary suppliers of trade rifles to the American Fur Company and others that traded to both Indian tribes and free trappers as well as being issued to their own hunters and trappers.

Below is a rifle I just finished that used the J. Henry "Lancaster" or "American" style as an inspiration as it is not an exact bench copy. Customer had a few special requests but it generally conforms to a J. Henry trade rifle of the pre 1830 style that would have been available.

I am curious as to wither or not the period rifles actually made for the rugged life of a fur trapper/trader were of brass furniture construction ? I would think one would want the more sturdy iron furniture that does not reflect as much light.
Nice work on the rifle pictured !

 

[Grenadier1758]

Brass was more common. It is sturdy enough for some hard use. It doesn't take long for the brass to take on a dulling patina to become almost brown.

Even with the barrel still in the white, my Derringer Rifle with brash hardware does not reflect light as the white barrel has become gray and the brass quite dull.

Now, my King's Musket is a different story. Brass was chosen for the hardware on the King's Musket. I am sure brass wouldn't have been selected unless it was suitable for hard military use.

 

[Dphar1950]

The Hawken Rifle may have been their favorite, but it most likely was a Leman, Kreider, Tryon, Gumpf, Deringer, Henry or some other maker's rifle that they shot. The Hawken Plains Rifles heyday was really right at the very end of the fur trade era. Inventory lists of trade goods list the Hawken rifle at maybe less than 1/10 of the quantity of rifles ordered and usually at more than twice the cost of the other rifles.

This is true to certain extent. The Hawken Mountian Rifle (that is what the Hawkens called them) evolved over time. While there is no proof there is a VERY good chance that the Montana Historical Society has a J&S Hawken in their inventory that has a silver check piece plate with ETC St Louis engraved on it. These match Edmund Christy who was at one time a part owner of Rocky Mountain Fur Company and was with a trapping brigade at the time frame this rifle was built. From the museum records came out of St Louis area in the 1930s. Given its features, which are early in the 1/2 stock evolution, the fact that I am sure that it was stocked by the same hand as the "Petersen Rifle" and the IMO slightly later Atchison (Silver mounted) rifle dated 1836. We have to admit that there were Hawkens in the mountains surely from the late 1820s at least. But they were not what we today call a Hawken "plains rifle". In fact the ETC rifle does not have all the features expected on a "Hawken". The Petersen rifle was, from the rod pipe spacing, shortened from about the same length as the ETC some time in its career. This being about 40". The ETC has other features which would surprise most here but I will not discuss since two collaborators and I are seeking to get an article published on this rifle in a peer reviewed journal. Since it has gotten virtually no press and has, for most part it seems, lived in the Museum basement in Helena. I consider it, the "Petersen" and the Atchison rifle to be very important rifles in the chronology. Far more important than the miss-dated Modena rifle. The vast majority of Hawken Mountian Rifles that SURVIVE, are from the 1840s until after Jake had passed and Sam had retired. The Bridger Rifle also in Helena is a FAR different rifle in stock shaping and massiveness than the rifles mentioned above. The factory rifles like the Lemans and the Henrys were mass produced and cheaper. And if you wanted something cheap they could and would make it. So the companies, like the America Fur Company, could get a decent rifle, if they were firm in their specifications, for less. Were they as durable as a mid-late 1830s Hawken? Doubt it. But they were good enough and they were cheaper. But American Fur Company in ordering flintlock rifles from Henry in early 1830s specified that the locks had to be very good and price was secondary. Also that percussion rifles "would not do". To this day there are 3 classes of firearms owners in America. I label them as follows, gun owners, shooters and riflemen. And the first two, and the first especially, are notorious for buying the cheapest thing they can find, for the most part anyway. If you tell someone looking for a "good" ML that the PARTS will, like Kibler kit will run over 1000 bucks they go into shock. They want to buy something for 200 bucks. This has been true forever. Either due to the person being low income or simply because they cannot tell quality from lower quality or even junk. So there are moderns buying MLs in Montana now to use in the traditional ML season that are buying guns I would not want to be around when fired. The Hawken Shop could not HOPE to produce a quality rifle really suitable for Mountain use for what a Henry scroll guard rifle sold for whether flint or percussion.

 

[Dphar1950]

I am curious as to wither or not the period rifles actually made for the rugged life of a fur trapper/trader were of brass furniture construction ? I would think one would want the more sturdy iron furniture that does not reflect as much light.
Nice work on the rifle pictured !

There is a 1/2 stocked Hawken 1/2 stocked Mountain Rifle in the firearms museum in Cody that is brass mounted rigth down to the key escutcheons.

 

[Mulemauler]

This is true to certain extent. The Hawken Mountian Rifle (that is what the Hawkens called them) evolved over time. While there is no proof there is a VERY good chance that the Montana Historical Society has a J&S Hawken in their inventory that has a silver check piece plate with ETC St Louis engraved on it. These match Edmund Christy who was at one time a part owner of Rocky Mountain Fur Company and was with a trapping brigade at the time frame this rifle was built. From the museum records came out of St Louis area in the 1930s. Given its features, which are early in the 1/2 stock evolution, the fact that I am sure that it was stocked by the same hand as the "Petersen Rifle" and the IMO slightly later Atchison (Silver mounted) rifle dated 1836. We have to admit that there were Hawkens in the mountains surely from the late 1820s at least. But they were not what we today call a Hawken "plains rifle". In fact the ETC rifle does not have all the features expected on a "Hawken". The Petersen rifle was, from the rod pipe spacing, shortened from about the same length as the ETC some time in its career. This being about 40". The ETC has other features which would surprise most here but I will not discuss since two collaborators and I are seeking to get an article published on this rifle in a peer reviewed journal. Since it has gotten virtually no press and has, for most part it seems, lived in the Museum basement in Helena. I consider it, the "Petersen" and the Atchison rifle to be very important rifles in the chronology. Far more important than the miss-dated Modena rifle. The vast majority of Hawken Mountian Rifles that SURVIVE, are from the 1840s until after Jake had passed and Sam had retired. The Bridger Rifle also in Helena is a FAR different rifle in stock shaping and massiveness than the rifles mentioned above. The factory rifles like the Lemans and the Henrys were mass produced and cheaper. And if you wanted something cheap they could and would make it. So the companies, like the America Fur Company, could get a decent rifle, if they were firm in their specifications, for less. Were they as durable as a mid-late 1830s Hawken? Doubt it. But they were good enough and they were cheaper. But American Fur Company in ordering flintlock rifles from Henry in early 1830s specified that the locks had to be very good and price was secondary. Also that percussion rifles "would not do". To this day there are 3 classes of firearms owners in America. I label them as follows, gun owners, shooters and riflemen. And the first two, and the first especially, are notorious for buying the cheapest thing they can find, for the most part anyway. If you tell someone looking for a "good" ML that the PARTS will, like Kibler kit will run over 1000 bucks they go into shock. They want to buy something for 200 bucks. This has been true forever. Either due to the person being low income or simply because they cannot tell quality from lower quality or even junk. So there are moderns buying MLs in Montana now to use in the traditional ML season that are buying guns I would not want to be around when fired. The Hawken Shop could not HOPE to produce a quality rifle really suitable for Mountain use for what a Henry scroll guard rifle sold for whether flint or percussion.

Great info! Thank you!

 

[Notchy Bob]

I hope @Dphar1950 won't mind if I insert a couple of pictures to augment his excellent post. This is the early (circa 1835) J&S Hawken from the Montana Historical Society that he mentioned in post #26 above:



...and the silver cheek piece inlay with the E.T.C. St. Louis engraving:



You can see more than a dozen additional pictures that provide a great deal of information about this rifle on the MHS Museum Collections website: Early J&S Hawken

The MHS also has the Jim Bridger Hawken on virtual display. While the MHS Bridger Hawken is of a later vintage, its documented association with the well-known mountain man and provenance are impeccable: Jim Bridger Hawken

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[ronaldrothb49]

My next project is going to be a Lancaster Pattern J Henry and sons. Have had all the parts to make it for more years than I care to admit. Also going to try making a horn and shooting pouch to go with it. Kind of like what the fur companies would have supplied to someone who signed up but didn't have any equipment. Yeah I know he probably would have gotten a smooth bore but I like rifles. May even make a pistol to go with it if I can find a barrel.

 

[D.Summers]

Sweet post, Notchy Bob!!

 

[Hermit Tim]

During the 70's while sitting around the camp fire a frequent topic of discussion, sometimes heated, involved what particular rifles were really the Mountain Man's favorite. During this time just about everyone was convinced that the Hawken rained supreme but when discussing the earlier years, pre 1835, names such as Krider, Leman. Gumph, and Tyron were seldom if ever mentioned. Another name we were blissfully unaware of was John Joseph and later his son James Henry. So much has been learned and documented today that these names should be common knowledge, but unfortunately aren't.

JJ Henry and his son J Henry operated a prosperous gun building firm that was really more factory than shop in Boulton, PA. During the 1820's-50's they were one of the primary suppliers of trade rifles to the American Fur Company and others that traded to both Indian tribes and free trappers as well as being issued to their own hunters and trappers.

Below is a rifle I just finished that used the J. Henry "Lancaster" or "American" style as an inspiration as it is not an exact bench copy. Customer had a few special requests but it generally conforms to a J. Henry trade rifle of the pre 1830 style that would have been available.

Very nice rifle. And also some good information. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Dphar1950]

If you look to the photos of the "ETC" rifle you will see that it has a nipple lug that is part of the barrel forging, yes its a forged barrel. This is described by W. Greener in his "The Gun" from 1835. If you can find it (The Gun and its Development by his son W.W. Greener is the first one usually found) "The Gun" can be downloaded off the WWW. It has a lot of info for the person interested in the gun trade of the early 19th c.

 

[reddogge]

Beauty. I also did a copy of a J. Henry trade rifle for my son back in the 80s. I unwisely disposed of the book the picture of the rifle was in. The original and this copy are brass mounted and I told my son to NEVER polish the brass.

 

[tenngun]

I am curious as to wither or not the period rifles actually made for the rugged life of a fur trapper/trader were of brass furniture construction ? I would think one would want the more sturdy iron furniture that does not reflect as much light.
Nice work on the rifle pictured !

The rifle makers for the two big companies American Fur and Rocky Mountain Fur were making almost exclusively brass mounted rifles during the rendezvous period
We see the ‘English rifle’ that was reminiscent of the Baker style British military rife was seen with plain brass furniture, while Dickert and Derringer were both engraving brass on their ‘plane rifles’
Brass isn’t as strong as iron, but the blow that will damage brass fittings will likely harm the stock anyway.
Even during the plainsmen period, 1840-60, many rifles were made for the west with all brass furniture

 

[Mowich]

I just posted a few pictures of this Henry New English Sroll guard in the percussion rifle topic under "Gary Ruxton" a couple days ago. Gary was the builder of this trade rifle and a Gunsmith at Green River Forge before building on his own. These guns originally cost $11.50 each new!

 

[reddogge]

Many years ago they had the Bridger Hawken on display on a stand on a table at the Maryland Arms Collector show . You could not touch it or handle it but I had my nose 4" from it.

 

[Absoroka]

There ae two Hawken rifles in the Buffalo Bill Museum with brass trigger guards. Both are attributed to S. Hawken. One is dated late 1840's, the other which is a long barreled, full stock rifle is dated 1800's.

 

[Mulebrain]

I sure miss the best sandwich around! I will get it again after my son is back with his command close to Tinker

 

[Dphar1950]

There ae two Hawken rifles in the Buffalo Bill Museum with brass trigger guards. Both are attributed to S. Hawken. One is dated late 1840's, the other which is a long barreled, full stock rifle is dated 1800's.

Since Jake died in 1849 the St Louis made S Hawkens are all post 1849. The long barreled heavy “Kentucky” with S Hawken is S Hawken but is not what we would call a Mountain Rifle. But it was stocked by the same had as a FS Mountain rifle marked S Hawken. And its a nice quality plain rifle of the 1850s era.