ROA and Mag Spark

[Smokerr]

Thank you, that is the kind of detail I was looking for.

I have a set on order. I can get various mfgs. I am used to adjusting powder charges for metallic reloading as you can get mag primers or regular in all the pistol and rifle sizes.

I have a LabRadar so I can see what the velocity change is with any given powder.

That gets me back to shooting as I am down to my last 9 caps and then when the shells come in for the Caps I can play with that. Good news is I can play with them and see how they do just popping them off and get an idea how good quality control is.

I will report back when I get some shooting in with them. $90 is not cheap but caps were going for $20 a hundred which is nuts as well and right now I can't get them!

Of course that may change when the Mag Spark comes in and if thats what it takes to sacrifice myself to get that to happen , well, I do it for the community! Ring in the Trumpets and the violins.

 

[Bad Karma]

Appreciate you taking a bullet for the community…

 

[Smokerr]

Well a Primer or a Cap for sure (grin)

Some may think I am a bit crazy but part of the fun part of the BP is playing with things. I am all to serious about my metallic rifle shooting but the BP and pistols now are just fun stuff.

The last 9 caps will go on the 47 Walker and I can shift over to the Ruger until the stuff to make caps comes in. Not looking forward to making my own but so it goes. I like shooting and not fiddly stuff but a lot of fiddly stuff goes into the metabolic cartridges as well. I build up my own rifles so that too has been a learning experience but you can get pretty accurate rifles (sub 1/2 MOA) for not too bad a cost.

 

[Smokerr]

Sometimes things work out, I was going to go shooting Saturday but after I got up, dang I am sleepy, so I went back to bed and had a nice snooze in. It turned out to be a cold and windy day so no loss.

In the meantime the Mag Spark adapters came in so I was able to test DYI caps and the Mag Spark Today.

The Mag Spark seemed way too loose with the 209 Primers in it, so I added a tad of tape for friction. That just jammed the 209 Remnants once fired. I took those out.

The 209s stayed in and the shields retained them so a bit loose is not a problem.

I got 100% ignition, no problems other than prying the 209s out as they got smoked up a bit.

The 209s add a lot of velocity, maybe just ignites more suddenly, I don't think its the primer itself. Regardless dropped loads back and no problem.

There seems to be an accuracy loss but I need to play with powders and see. Still good enough for 4-5
inches at 25 yards.

The Primers I got were Federal Muzzle Loaders and I do not know yet how other shotgun primers compare.

I did not tighten the MS device real hard, just snug. They were all slightly loose after 4 rounds (found that when I got home and pulled them to get the cylinders clean).

I would advise checking during re-loads, I think they were plenty tight to start with and not so loose as to be an issue but a lot of firing it might have been.

 

[Taevers]

This is where I get to do a bit of education on Alaska. We are not connected to the United States, Candada sits between us and you all.

So what? You can't ship by air, ammo, primers, black powder the worst and caps are like primers. Over the road? Yep, special arrangements to do so through Candada. Cost big bucks. Lots of paperwork.

Now you can do it by air, but the costs are huge. The only one I knew it was Mil Surplus (CMP) disposal outfit and they had an arrangement with FedEx.

So how do we get stuff? Barge. But the Barge is limited to 1500 lbs or some such. So we are backed into a corner. Mr. Deland can confirm.



That is the kind of detail that helps. I am just shooting off a bench so flubbing stuff (yea my fingers do that as well) is not an issue. Worst case I can put a towel down, SOP taking guns apart to keep from loosing things so would not be a problem.

I have used some homemade caps that were gifted to me to try and they worked great on my ROA. I did order a Mag Spark nipple for long gun, and, even though I’ve only used it once or twice, I believe I like it. Can’t imagine it being anything but cumbersome on a revolver, but I’d be interested in hearing someone’s range report.

 

[Bad Karma]

I have used some homemade caps that were gifted to me to try and they worked great on my ROA. I did order a Mag Spark nipple for long gun, and, even though I’ve only used it once or twice, I believe I like it. Can’t imagine it being anything but cumbersome on a revolver, but I’d be interested in hearing someone’s range report.

Read the post above yours. Also, look at the revolver version. It’s different than the one you’re used to using. No caps. The hammer hits the primer directly.

 

[Taevers]

Read the post above yours. Also, look at the revolver version. It’s different than the one you’re used to using. No caps. The hammer hits the primer directly.View attachment 319816

Looks like it’s a great option. Going to have to make a move pretty soon, one way or the other, with homemade caps or shotgun primers as I am down to 300 caps. Course I could always dream of walking in somewheres and tripping over a large box of them. Good luck to all in the new shooting season.

 

[Smokerr]

Yea that was my thought as I failed to get all the Caps I could have. For whatever reasons I can get a box of 209ML Federals.

If you go the DYI route then a guy called Bearded Gunsmith sells them on EBAY, I think the 11s would work better in a ROA, had issues with dual hammer hits to set them off with the ROA.

As was noted, nothing futzly about the Mag Spark, the hammer hits the 209 and pop it goes. They get harder to pull out of the Mag Spark as you are shooting, so for bench work an extractor tool might be needed, draill and or a spiral puller maybe a tap die to insert and pull. Once they start to move and you can grip the rim they come out fairly easily, prying on the rim (or getting it lifted) is a bit of a chore with the 4th round being harder and I did them at home.

You could cut a small notch in the side of the Mag Sparg and get a spot to tap it with a small screwdriver or punch or chisels. Just a tap works to do it once you get the rim up a tad.

The Primers are easy to load from the rear unlike the caps which I normally (when I had them) load with the cylinder off.

 

[Smokerr]

Ok, more testing with Mag Spark. The first aspect is its all very positive ignition. No hang fires or fizzlers, 100% boom (and I have had PC cause delays).

What I am finding is the more I used the Mag Spark the harder the spend Primer was to get out sooner and now its a bit of a pry job to get them out after one round.

I am chamfering the edge so I can get a screwdriver under the primer lips to pop up. Once you get any lift they come out easy. Its an odd thing, its getting them moving and then its not an issue.

The other part I am considering is cutting slots for a small screwdriver (I have some case hardened ones it won't damage).

Chamfer all the way around or you have to index them to a specific chamber (using Paint ID for the chamber and the Mag Spark. I am going for all around. If that works I am good. If not then it is slots in 3 places to try and see if one slot is good enough for a line up and an initial lift.

The primers go in loose, so loose they will fall out if tilted back and the Cap Port has the primer indexed in it. In a **** position, the shield keep them in place fine and the first firing indexes a spent cap to just above the port and the 2nd shot then has spent caps after that. I thought it might be an issue but has not been.

I thought they would be way too loose but clearly they had to average out a tad of crud and fired and it works but harder for removing.

Flip is I can load the Prisoners through the loading port which is impossible with my fat old fingers. Nice rim to grab onto and slide right in.

 

[springfield art]

I didn’t care for the Max Spark multiple piece setup. Drop it in the leaves or snow and you don’t have a spare, you are done hunting. Now if you have never dropped something a little larger than a percussion cap for example while quickly trying to reload, may not be an issue. I tend to drop small objects occasionally, usually at the worst possible time. Also found the 209 primers needed prying out of the adapter after the shot. Then there appeared to be a lot of carbon buildup from the 209s, though carbon shouldn’t be a big issue with ROA.

Personally, I would pay the price and stock up on caps, or get a cap making kit, before relying on a Mag Spark and 209 primers. I was pretty sure before my first range session with the set up was over I wasted my money. The concern over availability and cost of percussion caps is similar to what occurred with primers, including 209s, in 2020. Same problem, just a different boat. https://www.powdervalley.com/reloading-industry/why-is-there-a-primer-supply-shortage/

Thanks for the input.

 

[Smokerr]

As I just shoot at the range, its not an issue. Other systems do require a firing pin, the ROA does not.

That said, the build up in the Mag Spark on the ROA is a problem. New it was not until about the 4th series, then it was. I cleaned them along with the guns when I got home but next rounds the primers were sticking (I had some tools to help and kept going)

My take is that you can chamfer the top lip of the Mag Spark so you can get under the 209 Rim, at least in the ROA it does not take much, its the angle or lack of around the edge that makes it worse or bad.

Or you can cut some small slots in the rim allowing a pry of a tool to start the 209 lifting. Once you get them out a bit they come out ok on the ROA. The problem is with that narrow cone of access, you tilt them and then you are fighting that tilt and the carbon.

The 209s are very loose in the pocket prior to the first firing. That could be an issue that you would need to leave an empty chamber to put the hammer on.

As the chambers all line up with the shields, one will not drop out as long as the gun is level. Have not tried up tilt. After the first round fired, the only patch out is the port and with a slightly stuck 209, it will not fall out and the rest of them stay in place as they are covered.

 

[SDSmlf]

The 209s are very loose in the pocket prior to the first firing.

What brands and types of 209s have you tried? You may find a tighter fit to not be as difficult to remove after firing. I’ve found different brands vary up to at least .005” on the diameter (depends where you measure). Even more observed diameter variation with the so called ‘muzzleloader’ 209s, not to mention the varying forces on ignition. Then there is the premium price because they are ML ‘specific’ and typically not available in 1000 piece box size. I avoid (if possible) the ML 209s.

I have sized things in the application I mentioned previously in this thread for the Federal Shotgun 209s (not the ML 209) which I found the most consistent both in diameter (fit) in ignition force, though I find they a smaller diameter than the other brands.

 

[Smokerr]

Shotgun Primers are non existent up here. I can get what I want in any other primers, werid.

On the other hand I have a store that has a box of the ML209 Federals. Not my first choice due to price but there we go.

I am finishing up the chamber of the top lip of the Mag Sparks and that looks to get the bit of grip I need to pop them out. I also did a light inspect of the Mag Sparks and while I had been washing them in soap and water and cleaning, I was not getting all the residue.

I cleaned them on up with a bronze brush and next trip through the soap and water will use that and not my bristle brush to clean.

At some point I will swap back to the DYI caps when the Number 11s come in and see how that goes.

 

[Smokerr]

The Chamfer helped a lot, I think I am still going to put slots in one as a test. Somehow I got some burrs inside the Mag Sparks and had to get them out via scrapping, had the tool for it that was intended to get under the lip. I was getting some 2 and 3 inch 6 shot groups at 25 yards.

A lot better though not perfect for getting out using the Box Cutter blade as a pry to get under the 209 Primer rim.

When I got home I soaked them in the same soapy water as the cylinder (and 47 Walker parts) and then used a bronze brush to clean inside. They now slip in easily, may slip out a lot easier now as well. Have to see.

One of the range guys was really interested in my DYI and Mag Spark setup and will bring some shotgun primers for me to work with. Its a shame their is not a setup for the 47 Walker as it would be a good bridge. Still back and forth with the DYI caps, I need to move to the more advanced solvents methods. I think its fully workable but - 3 inch groups at 25 yards.

The combination of a treated wad and brush the barrel with a 45 caliber brass brush helps maintain accuracy over a number of firings.

 

[Smokerr]

Ok, I now have it workable, some futzing to get there.

Carbon build up will eventually seize up a fired 209 as noted and its no fun prying them out.

So part of the fix is to decarbon them after each firing (using Carbon Killer 2000).

Another part is to use synthetic grease on the outside shell of the 209.

And the trim of the rim back allows a place to get a needle bit on my universel hand tools (they have very good case hardened slot, philips, Hex etc and includes a needle bit).

With that they come out reasonably easily and had a fun day at the range shooting both the ROA-94 (96?) and what I am calling the ROA-C (centennial version with no warning and the Centennial Scroll on the barrel).

 

[Smokerr]

I realized I was remiss in one aspect though its probably obvious.

The Shotgun primer is uber consistent on ignition. I am getting some very good min/max velocity loads out of it. No loads fail to go off.

I suspect if you wanted to use pellets they would ignite correctly.

 

[Smokerr]

Update on the Mag Spark.

I have one ROA fitted with those and the shooting has been more or less normal with the need to pry them out, sometimes easy and sometimes harder.

Yesterday I ran into a new one. I fired the first round and the cylinder would not rotate. After fiddling a bit it looked like the shot primer had mushed up into the hammer slot. Pulling the pin did nothing. I probably could have driven it out sideways with my compo cast hammer but I hate to beat on things, so I put it away.

I tried to get in between the cylinder and the frame which was not working either.

So I dismantled the gun, annoying as the hammer spring did not get retrained as you could not **** the gun (so there was a battle to make an adapter to squeeze the spring and get it retained in the end clip).

Once the hammer was out I could access the hammer notch in the frame with a small punch and tapped on the primer face bulging in there until I got it knocked back enough to slide the cylinder out.

I have shot at least 100 rounds with the Mag Spark and that was the first one that did that.

But its something to be aware of. Worst part was getting the hammer spring on the arm with the clip squeezed back down and retained.

 

[nhmoose]

Caps will never be plentiful unless the peppers and old retired fools who want to corner the market on them quit their behavior….

ok lighten up Francis.

https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...AD87230D7B83E8DA215EAD87230D7B83E8&ajaxhist=0