ROA Base Pin

[rodwha]

I was finally able to get to the range to try out my ROA. I had to take the cylinder to Home Depot as it didn't come with a nipple wrench and I resigned to buy a 3/16 nut driver. Obviously when I put the cylinder back on I forgot to turn the base pin to lock it into place.
When loading up the first chamber I tried seating the ball and couldn't believe it only sat half way in. Hmmm... So I figured it must take a little more effort. Beeennnnnddddd. What!?!? Grrrrr! I bent the base pin and was out of action.
I was able to bend it back to almost straight, but was afraid to try for perfect as I figure I may end up weakening it further.
It was bent bad enough to keep it from seating as it should, maybe 5* or so. Should I be concerned and looking for a replacement?
After fixing it I finished seating the 1 ball that was halfway seated. I'm concerned that it may give me problems down the road, especially if I were to use harder lead . I'm looking at finding hunting conicals/bullets available.

 

[rodwha]

Cannot find any parts anywhere.
I feel it will work as long as no real strain is put on it, but would like to find a compact, lightweight, yet durable loading press that I can take with me in the field. Any suggestions?

 

[rodwha]

Jacks has them in blue ($50) and will be producing them in stainless in a few months. http://www.jackfirstgun.com/
Tel: 605-343-9544

 

[TFoley]

Jacks has them in blue ($50) and will be producing them in stainless in a few months. http://www.jackfirstgun.com/
Tel: 605-343-9544

I recently posted a similar thread to this one, after an enthusiastic noob bent mine after failing to correctly turn the securing screw and then attempted to load it.

Calling Christine at Ruger was an exercise in futility - there are now NO more ROA spares.

I, too, am looking into getting some made here in UK by a local small CAD component company, but they sure as heck won't be $50 each. Somebody is jerking your chain, IMO. :nono:

I'll be looking at getting the the rear frame screws made up, too, as they seem to work loose over time and the tiny nylon bush wears away. For sure THEY won't be $6 each, either.

tac

 

[rodwha]

I'd be curious about the cost. It may or may not be a much better deal once shipping to Texas. Please let me know.

Mine is stainless. The one they have now is blue for $50...more once they make the stainless.

I'm told not to worry much about it. Another guy had the same thing happen, straightened his out, and has been using it now for 4 yrs without a problem.

 

[rodwha]

The rear frame screws you mentioned...are they the ones just below the hammer?
Having some made in case you lose one? Is that common then? I've not read anything about such...
Heavy loads maybe? I intend on loading mine on the high end with 777 as long as accuracy doesn't go out the window.

 

[rodwha]

A guy on another forum gave me this info:
"brownell has the base pin 780-000-121AE 15.33 FOR BLUE
SS 17.39"

 

[TFoley]

A guy on another forum gave me this info:
"brownell has the base pin 780-000-121AE 15.33 FOR BLUE
SS 17.39"

Thank you, Sir, for your PM, now acting on it via a pal in OR.

And yes, the screws either side of the hammer don't fall out, but they do shoot loose, and cannot be tightened too many times as they have a small nylon stub at the base to help secure them in place, like a form of Nyloc bolt. You gots to remember that MY ROA is 26 years old, and gets shot a LOT, especially now that it's one of the few handguns that we can actually have here on mainland UK. Add to that that unlike our Long Barrelled Revolvers/pistols, that are only shootable by the license holder, a BP handgun can be shot by anyone on a club guest day, and is therefore heavily used - 200 or so shots in a day is nothing special.

Anyhow, back to the base pin. I've spent the last week trolling around my local town here in UK, a place famous for precision industry of many different kinds. For example, LOLA Racing cars are based here, as is Quad hi-fi and numerous other instrument making companies and batch item engineering companies. It seemed to me, in my naivety, that making such a small item using CAD would be the easiest thing in the world, hell, given a couple of hours I could make one myself without CAD on my little model-making lathe. But not a single one of them has shown the slightest interest in an admittedly small run of precision S/S parts like these. I've not long put the phone down on one such company who admitted that they thought my email to them, in which I described the part I needed replicating, was the work of a would-be bomb-making terrorist, and had half a mind to report it to the local police. I agreed with the guy at the other end that 'half a mind' just about summed up his attitude, and put the phone down.

We'll see if Brownells can help out.

Best to all -

tac

 

[rodwha]

Mine was made in '82.
The only history on it that I know of was that it belonged to a friend of my father. I'm not sure if he was the original owner nor how well it was used. But it's in great condition.
He said his friend felt his 1860 Army shot better.
I'll find out next Sunday when I get back to the range.

Know of a place to find a nipple wrench? I didn't get it when he gave it to me. I tried to buy a Klein magnetic 3/16 nut driver but the store didn't have any. I had to buy a deep 1/4 drive socket set for now.

 

[rodwha]

How badly bent is your base pin? Can you not bend it back?

 

[TFoley]

Got a message back from pal in Oregon - Brownells have NO spares for the Ruger Old Army - All are gone.

I managed to straighten mine out using a couple of bored-out alloy blocks, my little lathe and some patience. Seems fine for now, but you never know. It's not as if it is a highly-stressed component, though.

Best

tac

 

[rodwha]

It's probably fine since it is supported by the frame in there. It couldn't bend much if it would.

 

[OLD CROW]

:stir: Bent my base pin,first time i shot my roa. forgot to lock it in place too. bent it back,years ago. still good to go. i shoot LEE R.E.A.L bullets and round ball. PURE LEAD only. I also shoot wheel weight R.E.A.L.bullets,sized to .454" in a KIRST 45cal.conversion cylinder in the ROA. Great accurate revolver. Will buy all i can find that are N.I.B. or in as new condition. Cause there ain't no more.

 

[TFoley]

OK, Gentlemen - there is SOME interest in new pins, as I noted before, the ROA is passing popular here in the UK because of the rather odd gun laws.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I finally got an answer to my problem by walking in the door of another specialist, and boy, did I get a sticker shock, no wonder you guys are laffin'.

Here is my post on a well-known UK forum, and if anybody here is interested, perhaps we can do a deal, so PM me. I'm not going public with the cost, BTW.

To all of those who have expressed an interest in getting a replacement stainless steel base pin for their ROA after either bending it, or having it bent, I am now in the position, via a local precision engineering company, to supply EXACT replications of the original part made in the highest quality precision-instrument grade stainless steel. I would respectfully remind you that Ruger has abrogated ALL responsibility for providing ANY parts for this very popular handgun that are not common with its cartridge-firing counterparts, in spite of their promise to support OOP products for ten years after cessation of the run.

As with everything custom-made in small numbers, they will not be exactly cheap, but they WILL be perfect replications. Considering that they are otherwise unavailable, the cost - IMO - is not unreasonable. To ensure this, I'll be 'trying' each and every one of them on my own revolver to ensure that the fit is in manufacturing tolerances of my own otherwise perfect sample, although, bearing in mind the high regard and reputation of the company concerned, I have no doubt of their engineering exactness.

If this venture is a success, I might be moved to ask for other small non-pressure-bearing parts to be made, in particular, those that are susceptible to wear and/or accumulative damage, such as the rear-frame securing screws.

Before I go any further in ordering, I must know how many of you are still interested - by PM, please - I do not intend to discuss costs on a public forum.

I need nine of you [the tenth one is for me] to make it a worthwhile enterprise. Obviously, more is better....better might mean cheaper and you can be sure this will be reflected in the eventual price - I'm not a snake-oil salesman.

I know that you all prefer to support your local industry in the USA, but delivery time is three weeks from me placing the order, which beats the 'maybe months' back home stateside. And anyhow, it all gets converted into $$$ for our jaunts back to your side of the ocean a couple of times a year, so the economy of the US ends up benefitting... :wink:

Over to you.

tac

 

[Zonie]

tac
If your going to have these special pins custom made, ask the maker if the "...highest quality precision-instrument grade stainless steel..." will be hardened.

That description covers a wide range of stainless steels which includes the Austenitic, non-heat treatable types thru the Martensitic heat treatable and the age hardenable stainless steels such as 17-4PH and PH 15-7 Mo.

Before going further I need to define "Yield Strength".

Yield strength describes the maximum load the part will withstand without taking a permanent set. The pins in your Ruger were stressed beyond their materials yield strength which is why they remained bent.

If your pins are made from a Austenitic stainless they will be just as weak as the originals if not more so.

If they are made from a Martensitic or a age hardened stainless that is properly heat treated they will be exceptionally strong.

For instance, the Austenitic stainless's have yield strengths in the area of 35,000-40,000 psi.

This is about the same as the soft low carbon steels used for building muzzleloader barrels.

Heat treated Martensitic stainless's have yield strengths in the area of 60,000 - 240,000 psi.

In my opinion, a heat treated stainless giving a yield strength in the 60,000 - 130,000 psi would be best for this application. The stronger materials with yield strengths above 200,000 psi suffer from very low elongation so a high shock load could result in breakage.

 

[TFoley]

Zonie - thanks for that note - I'm going over this afternoon to see the bossman there and have a chat with him.

Best

tac

 

[TFoley]

Zonie - thanks for that note - I'm going over this afternoon to see the bossman there and have a chat with him.

Best

tac

OK - bin there and talked to the man. He intends to use 316 Stainless steel, which has a tensile strength of between 72,000 and 75,000 psi. In MPa it is between 515 and 517. Developed for the paper industry, it is suitable for the following applications -

1. Food processing equipment.
2. Brewery equipment.
3. Chemical & Petrochemical applications - valves etc.
4. Laboratory equipment.
5. Heat exchangers.
6. Mining screens
7. Nuts and bolts
8. Springs
9. Medical implants.

It has a RH of 95, and can put up with intermittent heating up to 870C and continuous heating to 925C. 316 cannot be hardened by heat treatment. Solution treating CAN be done by rapid after heating to 1010-1120C.

I'm happy to have my pins made from this material. A point I'd like to make here is that MY ROA is 26 and a bit years old and has seen almost constant weekend use since the day I bought it. The material of which the pin is made HAS been polished by use where the cylinder revolves around it, but that is all. As for testing the material itself for its suitability to make a non-moving part of a 150- year old design firearm using modern materials, the shock loadings of such a component [a combination of radial and compressive shock] are not readily measurable without destructive testing or radical 'surgery' of the component concerned. However, in shooting MANY thousands of rounds through my ROA, the pin has failed to disintegrate into any form of metallic powder, and until it got bent, it was no doubt set to carry on for another 26 years.

The boss DID mention another grade of s/s, namely AL 17-4 [UNS S17400] and surprisingly, a local stock-holder actually had it to hand. However, it is notoriously difficult to machine in small component size, and would easily increase the proposed current price by 130%.

If the American maker of these pins ever gets around to making these replacement pins, I wonder which one HE will use at his $50 retail price?

Over here in UK we do not have the luxury of cheaper future costs - and something you CAN have today has a real resonant superiority over something that is, as yet, made of unobtainium. You might just be interested to learn that these pins [that can be made here in three weeks] are actually cheaper than the US ones, that are still maybes. If anybody here wants one, that's great, but will necessarily cost shipping from me to the buyer. Again, IF anybody is interested, then PM me.

Here in far-off UK we have to live with what can be done now. For us over here, without the benefit of Uncle Sam's massive industrial might, right now my show is the only one in town.

tac

 

[Zonie]

I probably should have mentioned the heat treatment of the hardenable stainless steels would add quite a lot to the cost. :grin:

17-4 is indeed a very tough difficult to machine material. It also requires a special heat treat cycle but the end results are very impressive.

The 316 stainless is probably very similar to the material the original barrel pin was made from.
It should work as well (or poorly) as the original part.

It's yield strength is 30,000 psi which makes it about as resistant to bending as 1018 carbon steel.

1018 or 1020 carbon steel is what most people are speaking of when they say "low carbon steel" and it is commonly used for muzzleloader parts.

Speaking of low carbon steels you may want to ask the manufacturer if using it in place of the stainless steel would lower the price.

As I just mentioned it would be as strong as the stainless and it is usually more readily available.

A benefit of using low carbon steel for the pin is it won't tend to gall when the mating stainless steel part slides on it.

Rubbing unlubricated non hardened stainless steel against non hardened stainless steel can cause the two surfaces to stick together and then rip apart leaving a galled surface.

Of course the low carbon steel could rust if it wasn't kept oiled but if it is oiled it could be used without any surface treatment such as bluing.

Anyway, good luck with your project. It sounds like you will be doing the other ROA owners in England (and the US) a service by having these pins made. :hatsoff:

 

[TFoley]

The 316 stainless is probably very similar to the material the original barrel pin was made from.
It should work as well (or poorly) as the original part.

It's yield strength is 30,000 psi which makes it about as resistant to bending as 1018 carbon steel.

Zonie - thank you for the good wishes. The suppliers here in UK - AALCO Metals - have provided me with a BS EN data set for all the 316 grade s/s materials -

316 -

Tensile strength - 515MPa

Compression strengh - 170MPa

Proof stress 0.2% [MPa] - 205

Elongation A5 [%] - 40%

Hardness Rockwell B - 95

They tell me that it is more than fit for purpose in the application I have in mind, noting that in the petro-chemical industry it is used for pressurised gate valves and elements of rotary kilns/roasters constantly exposed to temperatures exceeding 900C under high presssures.

I'm not prepared to mix metals in an otherwise stainless steel item - if anybody else cares to have these pins made in a quality carbon steel, that is up to them, but as you may have noted, so far the thunder of applicants rushing to provide replacement parts for the ROA has failed to materialise on both sides of the ocean. The 'sticky' word you mean is of course 'galling', something that often takes place on a stainless slide handgun on a carbon-steel frame due to lack of adequate lubrication. I might not be a great metallurgist, but I do build model live steam model locomotives for fun.

The orginal part, btw, is NOT weak, except for that section of it where the diameter had been reduced by the machined cut-out to take the half-bolt locking pin. It was not intended to take such vigourously applied and highly-localised local stress by the designers of the gun - no matter WHAT grade of material it was made from.

Let's wait and see what happens - and BTW I have six orders from over here so far. More, as ever, means cheaper... :thumbsup:

Best wishes

tac

 

[Zonie]

With the problems you folks have had and with Rugers unwillingness to provide parts for their ROA I can say that I strongly suggest that all of you folks here in the USA who own these guns should contact tac and buy yourself one of his pins.

Hopefully you won't have to pay a VAT to the British but even if you do, I think that having a spare pin would be comforting.

(No, he's not paying me for my endorsement. :rotf: )