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Dobson

36 Cal.
Joined
May 16, 2005
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I am currently building a Jeagur in 58cal. My question is this, the flint is currently connecting with the frizzen about half way down the face and so is only getting half a sweep of the face therefore half the sparks. The flint also connects not at a sharp angle. Has anyone ever tried heating the frizzen and bending it back toward the butt of the rifle? can this be done and if so how do i reharden the frizzen? I do have a small kiln with temp control in my workshop.
Thankyou all and keep your powder dry.
Dobson
 
there might be a good chance of breaking it even if heated bright. anyway you can get any pics? People here might have a different way of fixing that.
 
Dobson,
I assumed you tried longer flints, and or turned them so the bevel is down. If you didn't I suggest you try different lenght flints, and both right side up and upside down. Then let us know that you are having a problem. Remember,(my opinion)the main thing is: does it spark, and does it hit the pan?
Keep us informed.
Flintlocks Forever
Lar :hatsoff:
 
It would help if you told us the lock you are using. Most American Made locks today have pretty good geometry. However, we still see flintlocks where the angle of the bottom edge of the flint when it strikes the face of the frizzen is not 60 Degrees.

The angle of the frizzen is usually about 10 degrees to the rear of vertical.YOur flint should strike the frizzen about 1/2-2/3 above the flashpan.

Until you tell me more about the lock, I can't tell you what to do further. You do have to use the correct length of flint. The flint should point to the middle of the pan when the cock is lower to its forward position with the frizzen up. You can get away with a flint that points a little forward of center, but not one that is pointing so far forward that its aiming past the forward edge of the flashpan.

In fact, such an angle is a pretty good indication that the jaw angle is wrong on the cock, and the cock needs to be bent at the gooseneck to lower the angle. If you have a double throated cock, then cutting and welding are in order to change that angle.

You don't want a lock that is smashing into the frizzen at right angles. That destroys expensive flints, gouges out the surface of the frizzen, and leaves the sparks that are created to fall slowly to your flashpan. You want, instead a lock that scrapes steel from the face, and throws the glowing bits into the pan. The powder should be igniting before the cock finishes its stroke, on a good lock.
 
as usual I disagree with Mark's blanket statements. Each make of lock is different. Some work marvelously with the bevel up. My Cochran, and my Chamber's locks are two. Others work better with the bevel down. I have seen several L&R locks that shoot better this way. It depends on the make and model of the lock you have.
 
I was just going on original recovered flintlocks that have not been tampered with for 200 years or so. Modern shooters tend to do all kinds of stuff.
 
I'm going to make a WAG on this one, and say that it is probably a Davis lock. If so, Mark is going to be right on this. I have experience with their Yeager lock, and a similar lock made for the Christians Springs guns, and both do best bevel down. The geometry on either of these is pretty bad, but they will work, just a bit hard on flints. Just my opinion, based on my experience with both.
pennyknife187_640x480.jpg
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You didn't state what Lock you are using.

Could it be the flint ya are using is too short ? Most Jaeger locks I have used I had a 7/8 flint in it (7/8" wide x 1" long.

:wink:
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but if this is a
Davis lock he is using on this replica, its not a " 200 year old lock " as Mark Claims he was making referrence to, and his general statement is and was too broad. I have not seen the Davis Lock, so I don't know what to say, Until the poster tells us what lock he is using, your guess is much better than mine, and the picture illustrates the problems with mounting the flint bevel down. That flint will hit the lock too high, unless the perspective is off due to the angle of the camera shot.
 
Paul the perspective is a bit off. With bevel up, and a flint that nearly touches the frizzen, it will strike about 1/3rd up from the pan. With bevel down, the flint strikes about 2/3rds up from the pan, and throws a good shower of spark, although most miss the pan. Fortunately, enough get where they belong for the gun to be very reliable from the reports I've gotten on it. The geometry of this lock needs a complete redesign to be anywhere near right. The Davis Jeager lock is much the same in geometry. It just has a different plate. Both are a little bit hard on flint life, and are slowly digging a trench in the strike zone.
 
Ah, its that groove in the frizzen that will eat flints more and more the deeper it gets. The angle of the flint to frizzen has to be improved to correct that, and the tension on the mainspring lessened. If the angle is not change, it doesn't matter what the tension is. The frizzen will continue to eat flints. With continued shooting, you will develop TWO grooves in the frizzen, because the flint also rebounds, or bounces off the frizzen face after it hits so squarely to cause the gouge.The leather wrap also gives like a shock absorber. Lots of bad things begin to happen at that point.

Sparks that don't land in the pan are just decorative fireworks. Useless for what you have a flint lock for. It also takes time for sparks to bounce into the pan from wherever they first land. many of the sparks go out before they can light any powder. I have seen those kind of badly designed locks make lots of sparks, and misfire because none of the powder in the pan was ignited. You might as well buy a race horse that lays down at the gate.
 
I have owned both of these Davis lock models and my experiences about what works with them agrees with Wick's. Theory is one thing; practice is another. A man shooting flintlocks for 25 or 30 years learns that there are a few rules that hold up for all locks, and then a fella must see what works best in THIS lock.

A lot of original locks also had "bad geometry" but our forefathers made them work.
 
Actually they didn't. Many old timers had little contact with other shooters, and wouldn't know a good lock from a bad one. That is why the bad locks have survived. The owners just accepted a slow lock time, and misfires. They either put the gun aside after acquiring a better one- they could not sell or trade it to anyone- or they found something else to use to kill game, or domestic livestock. I still meet long time flintlock shooters who think that their guns which barely fire at all, or have a delayed fuse effect before the gun goes off is ' just the way flintlocks shoot ". They are dumbstruck when they hear and see my gun fired. They tell me they honestly have never even heard it was possible to get a flintlock to fire that fast.

So just because guns have survived through history for us to look at does not mean the folks back then knew much about them. I learned this first, BTW, in looking for a good anvil at farm auctions.Most are beat half to death, because the farmers who bought them had no training in how to use an anvil properly, and how to maintain them. I learned that from an old blacksmith I met back in 1973, and wrote my first published story about it in Muzzle Blasts. Like so many people today with no training in how tools are used, how to clean and maintain them, and how NOT to use them, farmers have been using anvils as a glorified rock, beating them with everything, heating the surface too hot so that part of the surface is annealed, chipping off edges, filing off edges, etc. The same kind of " wood butcher " work is seen with old guns all the time. That is what keeps gunsmiths in business.
 
OK guys thanks for the input and i have to come clean here. As someone once said "some days i sits and thinks and some days i just sits" yesterday i was just sitting (i think). Why couldnt i think of something so simple as turning over the flint???? Sorry for this, i didnt mean to be a total fool when i was born.
Many thanks to everyone anyway. I should have the piece built in the next month or so, i will post some pics for your amusement.
Regards
Dobson
 
That was not a foolish question. If you are a beginner, the best way to learn is to ask, then see if the answer works for you. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. In my experience, a lock with good geometry will work best with the bevel UP. A lock with pretty good geometry may work either way, and those with poor geometry go bevel down. Those that go bevel down, usually are flint eaters, but if you get reliable, and fast ignition, that is the important part. You may just have to change, or knap your flint more often, and sooner or later, you may need to grind a new face on your frizzen, to eliminate the trench that the flint has dug into it. Any time there is a choice, go with a Chambers lock.
 
For what it is worth, I recently had a long telephone conversation with L.C. Rice about some locks he improved for me. Of course there are many things going on with a lock when it is in motion and some makers of locks, try to make them work better by increasing spring tension. When in all reality, they would be better looking at the geometry of the lock. The flint should not be really attacking the frizzen, it should be sliding on the frizzen. Too soft a frizzen will quickly wear it self and leave metal bits in the flint. Too hard a frizzen, will only bounce off of the frizzen spring when the flint strikes it and not give you the spark you need. Take the lock in your hands and work the lock to see how the flint works on the frizzen. It needs to hit it, not attack it and then slide down. If all is right, the springs don't need to have the tension they probably have now and you will be a better shot from less bouncing around of the hard striking flint against an over strung frizzen. It appears as if many of the locks we curse at need to be revaluated on their geometry and spring tension.
 

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