Round Ball Behavior ??

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greeting Big John,

RoundBall asked a question that was posed by another forum member. Although the forum member found a solution to his accuracy problem, the original question remained.

RoundBall is entitled to not only ask the question, but to also express his opinion. Although I may disagree with him about certain points, I respect his (and all forum members) right to ask any question or express any opinion.

Today's quote should the creed for this forum.

As a teacher for 37 years, I always impressed on my students that the only dumb question is the one not asked out of concern that somebody else will think it is a dumb question

Personally, I too find the question interesting, and would to know why there is such a disparity between the 75 and 100 yard accuracy with the .490 ball.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

if you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[Maestro]

RoundBall asked a question that was posed by another forum member. Although the forum member found a solution to his accuracy problem, the original question remained.

RoundBall is entitled to not only ask the question, but to also express his opinion. Although I may disagree with him about certain points, I respect his (and all forum members) right to ask any question or express any opinion...
...As a teacher for 37 years,...

Mr. Hinnant,
With all due respect, it is apparent that you're a very serious fellow - and that's a good thing :hatsoff: - some of us less serious folk need to have that serious side to "balance" things out but...
Big John was joking! :rotf: You know, as in... everyone was commenting on "RoundBall's behavior". Now, granted, it was only 2/3 of a pun... P.U.!
We'll let you slide since we can understand how being a teacher for 37 years can help deplete the sense of humor! :rotf:
And all seriousness aside :winking:, your very informative posts are always a good read and much appreciated! :hatsoff:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greeting Maestro,

You are absolutely correct. I did misread Big John's post and did not catch the double-entendre.

My Face is RED. :redface:

Big John, I offer my apologies for being too "serious"

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

 

[Big John]

Only meant to cause a little smile,hope no offense was taken and nobody has to give me an appology.

 

[jaybeach]

Mr Hinnant:
Thanks for your informative post - and for all your work that went into it (especially typing all that with just 2 fingers - - poor man :rotf:
Persoanally, I use 2 fingers and 1 thumb!)
Anyway - it brings a question to my mind, however that I'm sure someone here can answer.
Am I reading this right that it is assumed that all .50 cal barrels are .500 bore? Don't they vary from maker to maker - and sometimes even barrel to barrel?
Or did I miss something?

Thanks,
IM jaybe :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

As far as I know, for the last 40 years when most companys said the gun was a .50 caliber, their barrels had a .500 bore. The groove size varies with the maker of the barrel.

The only exception that stands out was the Numrich Company who called their Minuteman and various underhammer guns ".36" caliber but the bores were actually .347 in diameter. These guns shot a .340 diameter patched ball.

 

[paulvallandigham]

While this does not directly help explain what is going on with a round ball dropping down through the sound barrier at about 60 yds, it relates. My good friend, George Mitchell, who built a .69 caliber Slug gun which he shot at Friendship, designed a two piece bullet, the back portion being pure lead, and a round cylinder with flats on both ends, while the front half is a lead alloy with the nose shaped like an enlarged, but proportional .22 long rifle bullet. The two pieces are held together with paper patching, lubed with sperm whale oil from a hoarded supply! His load shot this monster bullet at 1050 fps, measured 20 feet in front of the muzzle. George purposely kept his bullet below the speed of sound( a nominal 1100 fps for our purposes) so that he did not have to deal with the sound barrier messing with his accuracy. Even so, the recoil of his 100 lb.gun would dislocate your shoulder if you didn't take a firm grip on that stock, and tuck it into your shoulder. He used 350 grains of powder in that gun. He told me that the .22 Long Rifle Lead Bullet nose shape was the best for long range shooting, and had been worked out by exhaustive testing in the 1870's and 1880's. His .69 shot one 500 yd group that measured 5.26 inches for 10 shots. I'd like to see some modern .222 shooter match that group at the same range!

My point is, that many shooter have no idea how much velocity is shed by their round ball guns when the ball goes down range. They may know the muzzle velocity of their load, but they haven't tested the velocity down range. Most are shocked at how quickly a RB loses its velocity. When that ball goes through the sound barrier between 60 and 100 yds, depending on velocity at the muzzle, all kinds of bad things can happen, and darn few good ones do. Accuracy is always impacted negatively when the ball gets battered around by shock waves as it goes through the transition zone. The Slug gun boys have been doing this kind of ballistics research for us for years, but we just haven't asked, or listened when they talked to us.

That does not mean you abandon a RB load that doesn't stay above the sound barrier out to some arbitrary distance. It does mean that you appreciate the short range accuracy of your RB gun out to 50 yds, and if you are going to be shooting at longer ranges, you are going to have to work a load up carefully for your gun. And do a lot of range testing. You may want to consider using a conical for the longer ranges, if you can find one that will shoot well with your gun's rate of twist. I know chunk gun shooters who shoot small caliber guns, with loads that send the ball out of the muzzle at over 2000 fps, just so the pea will get to the target before it drops down in velocity to the sound barrier. They shoot at 60 yds, but some also will use those guns out to 100 yds. But shooting a 36-40 caliber RB is much different than trying to do that with a .50-58 caliber gun.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetins Paulvallandigham,

This is a GREAT post! :hatsoff:

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

 

[Bountyhunter]

My ".54" Santa Fe has a .530 bore and I have to use .520 balls and ticking patches. It shoots good that way. One other thread here someplace in the last month or so talked about original rifles with 48" twist. Some shot good and some didnt and the difference was in the depth of the rifling.

I'd slug that barrel and do some measurements and see what falls out there.

Bill

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Bountyhunter,

You are right about the Santa Fe Hawken. Mine also has a .530 bore. According to the original factory information sheet that came with mine, the rifling twist is 1-66' with .010" deep rifling, AND a slightly coned muzzle.

IT has, from the begining, been a very accurate roundball shooter and also has won numerous matches for me. For 3 out of 4 years back in the 1980, I used it to win the TMLRA Hunter Rifle State Championship. At that time, "Primitive" open sights only were required. Animal targets were shot at 25, 50, and 100 yards. In order to use the same sight picture, powder charges of 50g, 60g, and 85g of Goex 2FF Black Powder were used.

The 85g load was excellant for white-tail deer. Always wanted to get a big wild feral hog with it, but could neve seem to be in the right place at the right time.

A friend of mine never seem to have that problem. Every time he borrowed it, he would bring in one or two hogs, but could never find a deer when carrying my Santa Fe.. Oh well, guess everything is a trade off.

I have only one complaint about mine. For my 5'-10" frame, the length of stock pull is a good 1/2 inch too long.

In todays market, the Santa Fe Hawken or Ithaca-Navy Arms Hawken are about as close to a real late period Hawken as a factory production copy as has been produced.

For hunting, I cast .527 balls and use my usual pillow ticking lubed with Young County Lube 103. For match shooting, the .530 Speer or my cast .530 balls are used. My usual pillow ticking, Teflon coated is used. The Teflon coated patch material makes loading the .530 ball easy.

A ML rifleman could do much worse than own a Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken, They are in my opinion A quality and accurate black powder rifle. I have yet to meet an owner of one that was disappointed with theirs.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[jimeckersley]

I need the expertise of the Forum brain trust to explain round ball flight characteristics.

A recent situation has occurred which I don't understand:

A .490 ball gives almost minute-of-angle accuracy to and through a 75yd target, but then when fired at 100yds, the same ball becomes a wild knuckle ball in the 24yds between 76 and 100.

Yet a .495 ball is fine all the way out to at least 125yds.

What is the explanation for the difference in the above round ball behavior?

Go to: Post: Cast balls -vs- swaged? (Topic#189857 in the Shooting Accessories category.

We hashed out some of the anwer to your question there.