round barrel kentuckies?

[asbrown]

You just have to love this forum. Where else can one put forward a semi-substantiated belief and have it semi-proven by someone else with heretofore unknown historical facts. I wonder if these big arms factories also had water powered milling machines? :stir: Seriously though, thanks for the info, i really enjoy learning something new and this is my new thing for today.

 

[rich pierce]

Coot, it is my understanding that most barrels were not made but purchased by rifle builders. The inventories at Christians Spring for example show a lot of barrels purchased. If there was a bigger demand for round rifle barrels, they would have been made.

Spence, that Kindig #2 is a favorite of mine. Nice strong architecture. To me, it is probably a 1770's rifle-built gun. Kindig's estimates were early compared to many writers today who have had a chance to examine dated rifles like Oerter's.

 

[asbrown]

:surrender: I make no claim to be a firearms historian (5th grade or otherwise)just someone who reads a lot and thinks of possibilities. I've personally held a rifle barrel that became a prybar at a great grandparents farm. My main point in the postwas to suggest that we should be careful when using absolutes. This thread has shown already that round barrels were made in rifle style stocks, albeit smoothbores, and we know that oct/rd rifled barrels were made, so it's not a huge leap to suggest that rifled round barrels may well have been made. I guess the nonconformist in me comes out whenever I feel people are so tied to HC/PC that they aren't flexible. :v

 

[hoochiepapa]

Those long barrels add elegance, don't you think?

 

[George]

Those long barrels add elegance, don't you think?

Rifle or smoothbore, early or late, I love them.

Spence

 

[hanshi]

I've seen pics of several round barrel smooth rifles with the smallest being .45. They were part of a single collection. As for rifles, I haven't the foggiest idea. A rifle, IMO, needs an octagon barrel to look truly "rifely".

 

[bennypapa]

This thread has shown already that round barrels were made in rifle style stocks, albeit smoothbores, and we know that oct/rd rifled barrels were made,

and

Problem is, when their usefulness as a hunting tool ended, they became a prybar

And in between being a new gun and prybar it could be that a round, rifled barrel may have had its rifling reamed out for reasons we can now only speculate about (wear, the owner may have had too many rifles and too few smoothbores, to make the gun suitable for military service etc etc).

Without careful examination of the existing round barreled "smooth rifles" we can't be sure they didn't start out with rifling can we? Even with examination we might not be able to make a definitive answer to that question.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:surrender: I've said this before but it bears saying again here. The historical record is comprised of those few guns that have survived the ravages of time. Usually they are of the nicer variety because the wealthy wanted the best and they also had the means to keep things beyond their useful life. We have the records of prolific gunsmiths in major gun building areas but not those of the small town smiths who only made a couple guns a year as needed or requested by other locals. The reason muskets are round is because the shape is cheaper to manufacture due to time saved not filing all the flats by hand. To suggest that round rifle barrels were never made is ludicrous. Somewhere someone made cheap serviceable rifles with no frills and a round barrel. Problem is, when their usefulness as a hunting tool ended, they became a prybar, or some other useful tool, so we have no physical record of them. And since the builder was likely a smith but not a gunsmith he probably kept few if any records of his endeavors. I always say anything is possible, you prove to me it wasn't done and I won't do it. :blah: :stir:

Simple fact; the round barrel was more expensive to produce. The octagon barrel less costly as less time was spent removing excess stock. All barrels were given their final shape by grinding, and all barrels, whether octagon or round, received their initial shaping by forging. The round shape was more difficult to get to the final required shape. Laborious filing was only done to bring the product to it's final polish.

 

[rich pierce]

A round barrel of the same diameter as the flat to flat dimension on an octagon barrel is also obviously lighter- hence their use on fowling pieces, etc.

Regarding the "never" questions, if "rare" or "once" is enough to make somebody want a particular design, at least they can be aware that it is a rare or "once" kind of thing, and enjoy it as an oddity.

 

[Charlie_X]

It seems hard to believe an octagon barrel was less expensive to construct than a round barrel. Didn't America make extensive use of round barreled muskets from its founding up until around the time of the Civil War?

 

[tg]

Some times there can be some clues as breech thickness to caliber and other things that siggest whether a gun was made as a smoothrifle, but some dismiss them all as being reamed out rifles, hey Val Manufact 06...whatcha doing bringing facts to a fantasy based game? It gonna get vewy confusing awound here pwetty quick, I'm allweady all messed up and I have forgotted the topic of the post

 

[flintriflesmith]

the round barrel was more[/u] expensive to produce. The octagon barrel less costly as less time was spent removing excess stock. All barrels were given their final shape by grinding, and all barrels, whether octagon or round, received their initial shaping by forging. The round shape was more difficult to get to the final required shape. Laborious filing was only done to bring the product to it's final polish.

Actually relatively few EARLY American made rifle barrels were finished by grinding. Grinding the flats on rifle barrels becomes popular when mass produced barrels are also being reamed by water power. Rare in the period when tapered and flared barrels were the style. Much more common in the 1800s.

 

[George]

Simple fact;..... All barrels were given their final shape by grinding,....

Where and when are you speaking of? Which country, what time period?

Spence

 

[LaBonte]

Dependent on one's definition of the long/Ky rilfe and date, there were thousands of round and oct round barreled rifles made for both the US military contracts and the US Indian Dept:
1) M1803 aka Harper's Ferry rifel: 54 cal half oct/rnd - originally 33" later 36" long
2) Indian Dept rifles starting in 1807: 54 cal half oct/rnd - 38" long made by Dickert, Dehuff, Gomph, Gonter, Deringer, and others
An excellent article that includes the M1807 http://asoac.org/bulletins/97_flanagan_1792.pdf

3) M1814 rifle - 54 cal round barrel 33" long
4) M1817 rifel - 54 cal round barrel 36" long

a Peter Gonter half oct/rnd barreled rifle - late 1700's http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?itemid=33397

 

[asbrown]

Regarding the "never" questions, if "rare" or "once" is enough to make somebody want a particular design, at least they can be aware that it is a rare or "once" kind of thing, and enjoy it as an oddity.

Thank you. I totally agree. The little nonconformist who lives in me is just arnery enough to want something different than everyone else, but still within the realm of possibility. Those who wish to only copy the work of others are extemely talented,(no insult intended to those of you who can skillfully recreate fine weapons from the past) but are not necessarily "creative". I rather enjoy those on the forum who create new styles, or blend several older ones into a gun that is all them. That is why I take the "prove it wasn't done and I won't do it" stance.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It seems hard to believe an octagon barrel was less expensive to construct than a round barrel. Didn't America make extensive use of round barreled muskets from its founding up until around the time of the Civil War?

Absolutely, everyone made round military barrels both in Europe and here in North America. The round barrels were more expensive but were lighter (VERY important) and economy of scale with many produced by a limited number of makers thereby making them economically viable.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Actually relatively few EARLY American made rifle barrels were finished by grinding. Grinding the flats on rifle barrels becomes popular when mass produced barrels are also being reamed by water power. Rare in the period when tapered and flared barrels were the style. Much more common in the 1800s.

Are you saying that the majority of metal removal was by hand filing? The process of making both round and octagon barrels involved forging to rough shape (actually very close to finished form), then grinding to final shape and only finishing by filing.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

That is why I take the "prove it wasn't done and I won't do it" stance.

That will definitely get those who could be of help to you to leave you alone to your own devices. :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Dependent on one's definition of the long/Ky rilfe and date, there were thousands of round and oct round barreled rifles made for both the US military contracts and the US Indian Dept:
1) M1803 aka Harper's Ferry rifel: 54 cal half oct/rnd - originally 33" later 36" long
2) Indian Dept rifles starting in 1807: 54 cal half oct/rnd - 38" long made by Dickert, Dehuff, Gomph, Gonter, Deringer, and others
An excellent article that includes the M1807 http://asoac.org/bulletins/97_flanagan_1792.pdf

3) M1814 rifle - 54 cal round barrel 33" long
4) M1817 rifel - 54 cal round barrel 36" long

a Peter Gonter half oct/rnd barreled rifle - late 1700's http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?itemid=33397

You are, of course correct. The vast majority of the arms you speak of were primarily produced by the two national armories, Harpers Ferry and Springfield. Harpers Ferry produced all US military Rifles until the M1817 along with smoothbored muskets and Springfield produced the Indian arms and many of smoothbored muskets produced for the regular army. Both Harpers Ferry and Springfield made heavy use of grinding, for barrels as well as hardware including the lock, from the beginning of operations.

Arms made before the armories began production and the M1795 smoothbores made for distribution to the militias of the various states were made by contractors, not all of whom (few in fact) made barrels for their own use. A few barrels on contract arms were produced by the national armories but most were produced by makers who specialized in barrel making in large quantity. These barrel makers were primarily based in Pennsylvania and some had been producing barrels since the mid-18th century if not earlier.

 

[rich pierce]

Actually relatively few EARLY American made rifle barrels were finished by grinding. Grinding the flats on rifle barrels becomes popular when mass produced barrels are also being reamed by water power. Rare in the period when tapered and flared barrels were the style. Much more common in the 1800s.

Are you saying that the majority of metal removal was by hand filing? The process of making both round and octagon barrels involved forging to rough shape (actually very close to finished form), then grinding to final shape and only finishing by filing.

I am guessing Gary is referring to gunsmith-made barrels rather than barrels made in large numbers for sale to gunmakers. No doubt, when forging barrels one at a time, careful hammer work and filing could be done anywhere without water-powered gringing wheels. There is enough documentation to support grinding of barrels in a carriage in mills at barrel-making facilities in Europe. Many 1700's originals show grinding marks on the lower flats. I guess I could be mistaking "hot filing" marks for grinding marks, though, but the ones I have seen have been very uniform.

This is not the best example but one photo I had handy. The filing or grinding marks are diagonal to the angled flats on the bottom of the barrel. Unexpected? From a likely Revolutionary War rifle.