roundball rebound safety

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
20,082
Reaction score
6,988
Location
Arkansas Ozarks
The idea for relating this story came from another current post about potential safety issues with roundballs rebounding or bouncing back.
A bunch of us were on our annual pre ml deer season "squirrel hunt or starve and deer scouting rendezvous" in our local national forest.
In camp that evening a shooting match broke out. The target was a turkey head pinned to a tree at about 35 yards distance. Everyone except me was shooting a rifle with patched round ball. I had my Brown Bess and, for this match, loaded a patched 'punkin' ball. When I took my shot we immediately heard a loud 'whizzing' as the deformed ball came back at myself and a friend standing just to my left rear. The ball might have actually brushed his ear as he actually felt it pass by his head. :shocked2: An inch or two difference would/could have killed him.
My conclusion was that the higher velocity rifle balls penetrated the tree. But, my lower velocity (apx. 700 fps) big ball didn't and rebounded. Bad news. Could easily have been a terrible tragedy. I'm pretty much a safety nut. That incident was about 25 years ago and it still haunts me.
Lesson learned: trees are not good backstops for muzzle loaders.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
When I took my shot we immediately heard a loud 'whizzing' as the deformed ball came back at myself and a friend standing just to my left rear. The ball might have actually brushed his ear as he actually felt it pass by his head.

I don't doubt it in the least, especially if hardwood.

Years ago a neighbor and I were serious handgun hunters and wanted some very light loads for home practice. We ended up seating RBs cast from wheelweights into the mouths of 44 mag cases, just below the case neck with a little smear of bullet lube in the gab between the neck and the ball.

1.1 grains of Bullseye launched them very accurately, but slow enough that you could actually watch the ball in flight. I put up a 3/4" spruce plank and used a black Sharpie to draw on an aiming point, and we shot at 15 feet.

Pretty quick the mark was obliterated and my pard decided to take on a knot in the board. Pop! Thump! Owie!

The ball rebounded straight back and dinged him in the forehead right between his eyes. Sounded like someone thumping a melon when it hit him and raised a heck of a welt.

Not being real smart I decided to try a knot shot to see if was a fluke. Got a perfect matching welt.

Shot those things for many years, and we called it Not Knot Shooting.
 
:idunno: I have often wondered about the rebound of lead roundballs.Our woods walk has all metal targets and wondered how a lead ball would rebound or ricochet off these targets.We use 60 grns of powder with soft lead rb's only.Last shoot i checked by the targets and did find flattened balls.Sort of answered my question.Griz
 
:nono: :) You probably know wheel weights are not pure lead,might have been different results with soft lead.Griz
 
Oh Yeah, the low velocity will bounce back all right.
The common pratice of dryballing, then using a CO2 discharger or trickling a little powder in the fire channel will do it.

I was helping one feller with his CO2 thingy one time, the ball popped out went down about 20yrds and hit a plain ole 2x4 target post, bounced back an rolled almost too our feet. We didn't even think about it, just pointed "down range".
 
ny griz said:
:idunno: I have often wondered about the rebound of lead roundballs.Our woods walk has all metal targets and wondered how a lead ball would rebound or ricochet off these targets.We use 60 grns of powder with soft lead rb's only.Last shoot i checked by the targets and did find flattened balls.Sort of answered my question.Griz

It's best to have the steel targets angled so the lead will be deflected downward toward the ground. Globe shaped or cylinder shaped targets can cause ricochets in unpredictable directions depending on the angle of the impact.
Think about a game of pool. The direction the cue ball travels (with no back-spin or "English") after it hits another ball depends on where it hit the other ball. Straight on and it will continue straight, off to one side and it will go off toward that side. Same principle at work.
 
Any metal target should be able to swing freely and not be anchored tight up against a tree or post,angling them down is a good idea.A very heavy metal target should be used at 50 yds or more and angled down.No target should be mounted rigidly or against an unyielding hard surface.
 
All of our targets are hanging targets.When hit they move,also makes scoreing easier because they move when hit.Griz
 
All of our targets are free hanging metal also, never had any bounce-backs I've heard of.
I did shoot myself between the eyes with a 22 many years ago when the bullet bounced back off an old tractor tire in a fence row.
 
There are a couple of "Secrets" to shooting at metallic targets:

1. Use adequate powder charges, so that the Pure lead ball flattens and splatters.

2. Avoid, when possible targets that are stood on legs, unless they are placed on something flat, and with the feet of the target at the very back edge of the flat base. You don't want weak loads to fail to upset those targets quickly, so that the ball becomes directed away from bouncing back at the shooters. Even then, the balls will tend to fly upwards and sometimes backwards over the target, negating the value of most earthen backstops, unless some kind of roof is placed over the target(s).

3. Use,instead, Hanging bang plates( swingers)- any shape you choose--but suspend the plates with chains attached to the back of the target itself, down about 20% of the length of the plate, so that the metal plate tilts TOWARDS the shooter at a 15-20 degree angle. This causes even high hits with RB. to be deflected downward into the ground.

4. To save metal targets, put a limit on the size caliber that can be fired, even with light loads. Those HUGE one ounce+ balls fired from Brown Bess type guns are gong to beat those metal targets to death sooner or later, and can break the welds on the chains that hold the targets. Even two inch thick steel plates can be broken if hit often enough by these heavy lead balls. No conicals should be allowed, and, or course, no non-lead "bullets".

I think a .54 cal. RB is the largest diameter permitted to be used on our range plates. You can shoot paper with larger guns- but not the plates.

Unless you have several strong men to go out and lift up the heavy targets you must use for high velocity, or heavy ball loads, ask people Not to use those "cannons" on your metallic targets.

My club has metal targets made from 1/4 and 3/8 steel plate- not armor plate. We simply can't afford armor plate.

The 1/4" plates take a lot of beating, and, annually, our Range officers pull the targets into someone's workshop in town, and hammer out the dents from the back side, clean them up, check the welds and re-weld where needed, and then get them ready to put back out in the Spring. Even the 3/8" thick plates can get bowed over time, and they also get inspected, hammered, when needed, the welds checked, etc. annually.

We have been slowly replacing the 1/4" plate targets with thicker ones, as we can afford to do so. If we had a reliable source of armor plate we could afford, I suspect that we might begin to use that for metallic targets. But, armor plate is both heavy, and costly.

Our practice of mounting metal plates so that they tilt towards the shooter has not only proven to provide a great margin of safety, but by redirecting the forward momentum so quickly, we have saved the targets and the welds on them, extending their useful life, so that we rarely have any target fail during the year.

As for edge hits- inevitably that this will occur some time-- we pick spots in ravines to hang our plates, so that there is a high wall on both sides of the plate. Targets are generally placed Lower than the shooters, so that all shots are fired in a generally downward angle. Only an edge hit on the top promises to divert a ball up and back of the plate, and we either have a dirt embankment formed by the ravine's walls, or thick forests above the top of the ravine to stop the occasional errant ricochet.

A lot of work has gone into picking spots for these targets, on our Woods Walk( Hunter's Walk), and then clearing shooting lanes back to where the shooters will stand to shoot at the targets.

The only complaints I have heard about these metallic targets is that sometimes a target is more visible in the morning in the light, than in the afternoon. The Range committee takes these complaints seriously, and have moved targets, or cleared trees so that there is No advantage to shooting early or late in the day, because of lighting conditions.

At my club, because of the terrain, targets are usually placed so that shots can be from as short as 10 yd. out to 60 yds. We don't have a straight enough line in the ravine to shoot 100 yds, and that is sorely missed by some of our members.

When I was a kid, I used to shoot at a rifle range inside a played out quarry, where metal bang plates were hung at both the 100 and 200 yd. rifle ranges. These were 4" thick Gear Blanks, at least 12" in diameter- and often wider, suspended from 1/4" dia. Stainless steel wire, and cable. It took two strong, grown men to lift those targets out of the pickup truck bed, and then into place, and volunteers often went down and helped the staff replace broken down targets( the wire took a beating)just to help speed getting the range back open for shooting.

They made the mistake of attaching the wires to the tops of these gear blanks. There were shooters with scoped rifles who could shoot the wires by aiming for the spots where the wires attached to the plates.

I learned from their mistakes, and recommended the change of location to our club members when we built our swingers. I also recommended tilting the plates forward to deflect RBs down to the ground for safety. We4 used heavy chains from the beginning.

They also had problems with bouncing bullets, coming back to the 100 yds. range. In fact eventually, a sign was posted prohibiting .22 rifles from being used to shoot those plates. The cavities in the face of the plate, caused by the impact of jacketed bullets from high power rifles, could and did turn .22 RF. bullets around and send them all the way back to the 100 yd. firing line.

I didn't think it was possible, until a shooter went down to shoot the plates, and didn't notice the sign. He was shooting his .22 RF., and we could hear bullets hitting the broad leaves of a poplar tree( cottonwood) not 30 feet behind the firing line. We didn't realize what caliber rifle he was using, until a range officer came down and chased him off those targets.

Because we Tilt the plates FORWARD, we don't have the same problems shooting RBs as light as those used in .32 caliber rifles( which weight about the same as the .22 RF bullets do). An unexpected benefit of deflecting the lead balls into the ground at the front of our bang plates is that there is eventually a good quantity of lead that can be recovered at each site, melted down, and recast into lead balls. :hmm: That is a lot easier to do that digging into a dirt embankment to find lead balls and bullets. :grin:
 
I shot myself in the ankle a few months back. I went target shooting and dryballed after just a few shots. I usually remove the nipple and do the powder dribble thing, but no nipple wrench. Oops, I had taken it out of the box when I was messing with another gun at home. :( No tools in the jeep that would work, so back home I went. Nipple wrench was in the basement, which is also my main workshop. I took out the nipple and dribbled in about five grains. So I'm in my basement thinking I could just aim at a 2x8 board and pop out the ball, no worries. Well, it sounded like this, POP-thunk-OUCH! The ball bounced off the board, and then off my ankle. Almost too fast to see.

Pride was hurt more than my ankle. Lessoned learned. :redface: Bill
 
I know this is not about rb, but it is about low velocity lead bullets. A few years ago I was at a cowboy action shoot where the usual gun is a large caliber revolver loaded with lead bullets and reduced smokeless loads. On the same day I was hit by two different rebounding bullets which came back off of reactive steel targets. All the steam had been bled off of course, but they still smarted quite a bit. That was my last cowboy shoot. I've never seen or heard of this happening at a rondy trail walk. I'm thinking there's a need for at least moderately fast loads for things to be safe.
 
Brother and I were shooting his .69 cal Tower pistol years ago at a sheet of plywood. I stepped up, pulled the trigger and heard that ball whizzing about a foot past my right ear. Would have taken my head off :shocked2: Promptly walked up and kicked that plywood over, shot at cactus after that.
 
Only time I've ever seen it happen personally, was with with one of those little Elgin Cutlass Pistol kits.
I forget what the charge was, but the ball came back and hit me in the chest. Return velocity less than a slingshot.
It failed to penetrate a 1/4" plywood target at less than 10'.
 
Back
Top