Muleskinner
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I seem to get better accuracy with cast roundballs, even with the spew ridin' out front. Is there a reason softer lead would be more erratic?
Roundballs - Cast or Swaged?
- Thread starter Muleskinner
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Swaged lead is denser and harder than cast lead, not softer. It's squeezed at a gozillion pounds into the dies. The cast lead is the softer of the two, and possibly has trapped air to boot. Unless you're adding wheel-weights, linotype or other harder metals to your cast pot. It might be more accurate for you because it picks up the rifling better, is a different diameter, is always aligned carefully, etc, etc. Each rifle is unique unto itself.
Huntinfool
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Hey Muleskinner,
By most accounts the sprue should be out in the front.
As Stumpkiller said there are too many varibles to determine why you get better accuracy from cast balls. Such as mic the cast and the swaged to see if they are different diameter?
Also by all accounts one should use the softest and purest lead that can be had for roundballs used with a patch.
I'm not so sure that I agree with Stumpkiller that lead gets harded when compressed. Lead is lead is lead is it not? If you start with 98% pure lead you will end up with 98% pure lead even after it's been swaged someone correct me if I'm wrong, please!
In one post on another board some fellows weighed their swaged Speer balls only to find that there was quite a difference as much as 2 grains. Now that wouldn't bother me that much it would still be more accurate than I...LOL!
Hey the Maindest Thing is to
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
Chuck ::
By most accounts the sprue should be out in the front.
As Stumpkiller said there are too many varibles to determine why you get better accuracy from cast balls. Such as mic the cast and the swaged to see if they are different diameter?
Also by all accounts one should use the softest and purest lead that can be had for roundballs used with a patch.
I'm not so sure that I agree with Stumpkiller that lead gets harded when compressed. Lead is lead is lead is it not? If you start with 98% pure lead you will end up with 98% pure lead even after it's been swaged someone correct me if I'm wrong, please!
In one post on another board some fellows weighed their swaged Speer balls only to find that there was quite a difference as much as 2 grains. Now that wouldn't bother me that much it would still be more accurate than I...LOL!
Hey the Maindest Thing is to
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
Chuck ::
Naaaah. Train wheels rotate along the same axis of travel. Bullets or cloth-saboted balls (that ought to get a rise) rotate perpendicular to the direction of travel. ::
("When you're in trouble go into your dance." - Billy Shears)
Obfuscation aside, we chawed on this one just a few months back - and even had glossy 8-1/2" X 11" pictures of a ball showing the patch weave pattern pressed onto the ridges from the lands (proving the lead was more compressible than the cloth).
("When you're in trouble go into your dance." - Billy Shears)
Obfuscation aside, we chawed on this one just a few months back - and even had glossy 8-1/2" X 11" pictures of a ball showing the patch weave pattern pressed onto the ridges from the lands (proving the lead was more compressible than the cloth).
Carbon is carbon is carbon. Squeeze it hard enough you get a diamond.
Is molten lead the same hardness as solid lead?
Why do we park on a driveway and drive on a parkway? Life has many questions to be answered.
Huntinfool
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If I'm not mistaken (which of course I could be) lead is an element sqeezing it won't make it harder (if it's pure lead).
The part about the patch pattern showing on the ball just shows that it was soft lead ie. less antimony or tin if you will mixed with the lead.
Carbon is not an element right its made of once living materials. If what you said is true you could just sqeeze lead into a diamond.
Like I said before...
The Maindest Thing is to
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers.
"The Chuckster" ::
The part about the patch pattern showing on the ball just shows that it was soft lead ie. less antimony or tin if you will mixed with the lead.
Carbon is not an element right its made of once living materials. If what you said is true you could just sqeeze lead into a diamond.
Like I said before...
The Maindest Thing is to
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers.
"The Chuckster" ::
News to me that carbon is not an element. Lets see: earth, air, fire, water . . . It was #12, I believe, when I took college chemistry. It's the one they disguise as a big "C" (Lead is "Pb").
We're all made of star-stuff, formed in the fusion furnaces of suns and re-cycled since then on this magical planet. The same carbon in you could have once been in a dinosaur's . . . ear.
We're all made of star-stuff, formed in the fusion furnaces of suns and re-cycled since then on this magical planet. The same carbon in you could have once been in a dinosaur's . . . ear.
Huntinfool
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Sorry Stumpkiller, I hate to argue with a fellow bowhunter. LOL! But according to Speer and Hornady you are wrong.
Swaged balls are made of the purest form of lead they are not hard at all!
A swaged ball weighs the same as a cast ball a .490 ball weighs 176 grains. Presuming of course that they are made from the same pure lead or what we call pure about 98% pure.
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
"The Chuckster" :applause: :applause: :applause:
Swaged balls are made of the purest form of lead they are not hard at all!
A swaged ball weighs the same as a cast ball a .490 ball weighs 176 grains. Presuming of course that they are made from the same pure lead or what we call pure about 98% pure.
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
"The Chuckster" :applause: :applause: :applause:
Pure lead won't harden. Some of the lead alloys used in modern guns can be hardened after casting but this takes more than pure lead to accomplish.
The comments about swaging are also about right. A length of lead wire is fed into the dies and it is swaged or squeezed into the spherical shape under tremendous pressure. That's why I once started to take issue with a guy who said the home made cast balls were more consistant than swaged balls. He claimed to be able to cast balls within +/-0.1 grains.
Just to prove him wrong, I weighed 10 Speer .495 diameter swaged balls on my Ohaus scales! I found them to weigh 181.93+/-.23 grains. I then weighed 10 .440 Diameter Hornady swaged balls and found the weight to be 128.11+/-.59 grains.
As my factory swaged pistol and rifle bullets weigh within less than 0.1 grain of each other, I am not able to explain why the factory balls don't have better control but that's what I found.
The comments about swaging are also about right. A length of lead wire is fed into the dies and it is swaged or squeezed into the spherical shape under tremendous pressure. That's why I once started to take issue with a guy who said the home made cast balls were more consistant than swaged balls. He claimed to be able to cast balls within +/-0.1 grains.
Just to prove him wrong, I weighed 10 Speer .495 diameter swaged balls on my Ohaus scales! I found them to weigh 181.93+/-.23 grains. I then weighed 10 .440 Diameter Hornady swaged balls and found the weight to be 128.11+/-.59 grains.
As my factory swaged pistol and rifle bullets weigh within less than 0.1 grain of each other, I am not able to explain why the factory balls don't have better control but that's what I found.
Huntinfool
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Hey Zonie,
You said, "Pure lead won't harden." does that mean even when they are "swaged or squeezed into the spherical shape under tremendous pressure." As you said! As I said before Speer and Hornady claim that their swaged balls are the softest purest lead they can find!
I guess I'm lucky I've cast and weighed over 1000 .490 balls and only a few varied more than a tenth of a grain. I do take a lot of pains with my balls (LOL) and if something doesn't feel or look right I just dump em back in the pot!
My longrifle (Old Heartbreaker) will put em in one ragged hole at 50 yards! Slightly clover leafed that's good enough for me. I've taken 4 deer with her in the last 2 years and all four had a hole in their heart thus the name!
I get real soft lead for 50 cents a pound cleaned up and in ingots. I bought about 100+ pounds of the stuff. I've got 2 Lee pots and 2 Lyman steel molds. I'm certainly not going to buy expensive swaged balls! Do ya blame me LOL!
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers!
"The Chuckster" ::
You said, "Pure lead won't harden." does that mean even when they are "swaged or squeezed into the spherical shape under tremendous pressure." As you said! As I said before Speer and Hornady claim that their swaged balls are the softest purest lead they can find!
I guess I'm lucky I've cast and weighed over 1000 .490 balls and only a few varied more than a tenth of a grain. I do take a lot of pains with my balls (LOL) and if something doesn't feel or look right I just dump em back in the pot!
My longrifle (Old Heartbreaker) will put em in one ragged hole at 50 yards! Slightly clover leafed that's good enough for me. I've taken 4 deer with her in the last 2 years and all four had a hole in their heart thus the name!
I get real soft lead for 50 cents a pound cleaned up and in ingots. I bought about 100+ pounds of the stuff. I've got 2 Lee pots and 2 Lyman steel molds. I'm certainly not going to buy expensive swaged balls! Do ya blame me LOL!
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers!
"The Chuckster" ::
Oh heck. I'm dippin out or pouring my powder in either a piece of carved antler or a chunk o' bone, probably +/- 5% consistancy. If it gets to the point where I gotta measure itty, tiny whatzits or hang a micrometer from my hunting pouch I'm going back to traditional archery.
Lets go out and make smoke and punch some holes.
Lets go out and make smoke and punch some holes.
jtmattison
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I'm with stumpkiller.
Cast some balls and let'em fly!
Heck, the old timers didn't have scales and micrometers and they still managed to put meat in the pot.
If it get's too technical the fun is taken out of it.
Huntin
Cast some balls and let'em fly!
Heck, the old timers didn't have scales and micrometers and they still managed to put meat in the pot.
If it get's too technical the fun is taken out of it.
Huntin
What I was trying to say is squeezing or swaging the pure lead won't make it any harder no matter how mech pressure is used on it.
Hope I didn't make it sound like people should be worrying too much about the bullets weight although I know some of the better target shooters do.
What I was really saying is that carefully cast round balls weights won't vary any more than the commercially available swaged balls. If you cast your own balls/bullets you will easily save the cost of the molds even if you only shoot a few hundred shots a year.
IMO if people put as much thought into always making a good "follow thru" after their shot as they do worrying about bullet/ball weight, their shooting consistancy would improve immensely.
Hope I didn't make it sound like people should be worrying too much about the bullets weight although I know some of the better target shooters do.
What I was really saying is that carefully cast round balls weights won't vary any more than the commercially available swaged balls. If you cast your own balls/bullets you will easily save the cost of the molds even if you only shoot a few hundred shots a year.
IMO if people put as much thought into always making a good "follow thru" after their shot as they do worrying about bullet/ball weight, their shooting consistancy would improve immensely.
I put all my energy into finding the best possible prices I can on Hornady and Speer lead balls...their quality control and consistency totally eclipse my equipment and shooting abilities...besides...I still have to get good enough to know on any given shot which way I inadvertently aligned the weave of my patch... :: :: :: :: ::
I put all my energy into finding the best possible prices I can on Hornady and Speer lead balls...their quality control and consistency totally eclipse my equipment and shooting abilities...besides...I still have to get good enough to know on any given shot which way I inadvertently aligned the weave of my patch...right after I learn how to tell when a microscopic air bubble was in a ball on any given shot, or learn to tell that there was a fly spec on a ball I had left sitting on the bench too long, or that the sun's rays had heated up a lead ball used for one shot, more than another that was in the shade
:: :: :: :: ::
:: :: :: :: ::
Huntinfool
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Ha Ha, I finally agree with ya StumpKiller, LOL! Last night when I was making the earlier posts I was thinking about what you just said in your last post!
I pour into a powder measure from a horn. I know that my powder varies quite a bit! Heck probably more than 2 or 3 grains difference. With BP creating much less pressure I don't think it matters that much!
Hey I hunt with a longbow wouldn't go back to compound if ya gave me one. I started 40 years ago with a recurve! I make and crest my own cedar shafts.
I did go out today and shoot some of my cast balls. I was checking my sights. I thought they might be off a little they were about 3/4 an inch to the right. Fired six shots from bench at 25 yards all six printed together 3/4 to 1 inch right! Looked at my index mark couldn't hardly see it but it was ever so slightly to the left of the mark.
A couple of taps with a drift punch and all is well again. Got a club shoot in the mornin'! Next I put two balls in the same hole in the X ring on a ML 25 yard target from bench.
Then I fired one at 50 yards hit well into a 1 inch orange dot and fired a shot at a swingin' ram 100 yards held on head perfect hit. I wish I had a digital camera the groups were impressive! My Douglas Barrel is right!
Oh and roundball I know a lot of your post was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But if you are serious about buying swaged balls, a friend of mine goes to Wal-Mart every year after huntin' season. We got 3 of them within 50 miles of each other. He usally buys all they have at about 40% off! Let yer fingers do the walkin'.
OBTW I agree with you too Zonie! LOL
Keep yer Powder Dry Fellers,
Chuck ::
I pour into a powder measure from a horn. I know that my powder varies quite a bit! Heck probably more than 2 or 3 grains difference. With BP creating much less pressure I don't think it matters that much!
Hey I hunt with a longbow wouldn't go back to compound if ya gave me one. I started 40 years ago with a recurve! I make and crest my own cedar shafts.
I did go out today and shoot some of my cast balls. I was checking my sights. I thought they might be off a little they were about 3/4 an inch to the right. Fired six shots from bench at 25 yards all six printed together 3/4 to 1 inch right! Looked at my index mark couldn't hardly see it but it was ever so slightly to the left of the mark.
A couple of taps with a drift punch and all is well again. Got a club shoot in the mornin'! Next I put two balls in the same hole in the X ring on a ML 25 yard target from bench.
Then I fired one at 50 yards hit well into a 1 inch orange dot and fired a shot at a swingin' ram 100 yards held on head perfect hit. I wish I had a digital camera the groups were impressive! My Douglas Barrel is right!
Oh and roundball I know a lot of your post was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But if you are serious about buying swaged balls, a friend of mine goes to Wal-Mart every year after huntin' season. We got 3 of them within 50 miles of each other. He usally buys all they have at about 40% off! Let yer fingers do the walkin'.
OBTW I agree with you too Zonie! LOL
Keep yer Powder Dry Fellers,
Chuck ::
Yeah, I did the Walmart thing for a few years too, but the WalMarts around here have now stopped carrying ML stuff...last fall a local gun shop gave me a fair deal on a bulk order of a thousand each .440's, .490's, and .530's, so I'm set for a while
Huntinfool
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Hey Fellers,
Here's a good read about cast balls!
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/ballweight/ballwt.html
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
"The Chuckster" ::
Here's a good read about cast balls!
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/ballweight/ballwt.html
Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers,
"The Chuckster" ::
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