Running While Reloading Flintlocks - a necessary survival technique...

[M. De Land]

The 1st rifle was a 50 caliber. I used .480's in that one....the same ball I usually shoot from that gun.
The 2nd gun was a 62 caliber smoothbore. I used a .600 round ball in that one.

Remember...no patching was ever used in a running/reloading situation.
Accuracy didn't matter since most running shooting action would have been fairly close.
All you need to do was simply hit your pursuer.
Thanks for watching....

I remember reading a quip some years back about such running battle situations that went like this, "Son, been more than one enemy shot through with a ramrod in history" !

 

[wiscoaster]

Fun video, entertaining. But as a relatively newbie BP shooter, I'm wondering how he can be sure the ball is seated down on top of the powder and both compacted down unto the without using the ramrod? Seems kind of dangerous to me.

 

[M. De Land]

Fun video, entertaining. But as a relatively newbie BP shooter, I'm wondering how he can be sure the ball is seated down on top of the powder and both compacted down unto the without using the ramrod? Seems kind of dangerous to me.

Well the truth is Mark can't be sure with only a butt strike ball seat, especially with a fouled barrel but he did mitigate some of the risk by using no patch and an undersized ball. The idea was to demonstrate how our ancestors had to improvise to keep their hair when no one else was coming to the rescue.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

Fun video, entertaining. But as a relatively newbie BP shooter, I'm wondering how he can be sure the ball is seated down on top of the powder and both compacted down unto the without using the ramrod? Seems kind of dangerous to me.

@M. De Land Is right.
There is no way to be sure the ball is seated all the way down. This is purely a survival method when being chased by an enemy in the wilderness of the 1700's. During such a chase, one didn't care anything about safety, just get the firearm reloaded to take out the enemy. Generally...frontier folks used undersized balls in their arms for this very reason. They didn't use hammers and short starters to load their guns as black powder shooters like to do in today's shooting environment. That's just more equipment they didn't want to carry.
Thanks for watching @wiscoaster & as a new shooter, welcome to the hobby.

 

[wiscoaster]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[54ball]

Nope...no time for plugging a horn in this scenario.
When a frontiersman during the 1780's in Kentucky was on the run for his life, loading from the horn, priming the pan from the horn and not worrying about plugging horns was normal procedure.
Thanks for watching....

Well the truth is Mark can't be sure with only a butt strike ball seat, especially with a fouled barrel but he did mitigate some of the risk by using no patch and an undersized ball. The idea was to demonstrate how our ancestors had to improvise to keep their hair when no one else was coming to the rescue.

This is a very interesting display. This is an example of tap loading with a bare ball.
I commend B P Maniac Shooter for this demonstration.

@M. De Land Is right.
There is no way to be sure the ball is seated all the way down. This is purely a survival method when being chased by an enemy in the wilderness of the 1700's. During such a chase, one didn't care anything about safety, just get the firearm reloaded to take out the enemy. Generally...frontier folks used undersized balls in their arms for this very reason. They didn't use hammers and short starters to load their guns as black powder shooters like to do in today's shooting environment. That's just more equipment they didn't want to carry.
Thanks for watching @wiscoaster & as a new shooter, welcome to the hobby.

I do agree somewhat with this but I think we need to take a closer look.
There is a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true.
I question the method.
We know for sure that Kenton and Wentzal were known for their skill of loading a rifle at a dead run.
My question is, did they “tap load” or did they load their rifles more conventionally?

One assumption that needs to be looked at is that loading with a patched ball and rammer is impossible or too slow.

Is it?

If it is possible to conventionally load on the run, how fast can it be done?

Personally, I believe that loading with a patched ball and rammer can be done and done rather quickly.
I believe it needs to be explored.

I agree that they used loads that required no mallet or starter.
I agree that they loaded from the pouch.

I personally think “they” were concerned about safety or at least efficiently.

I have several issues with the uncapped horn.
1. Explosion from an uncapped horn.
If the horn explodes, the chase is over.
The injured smoldering rifleman is caught and scalped.
2. Spillage
At a run the uncapped horn is open and could spill precious powder. With the powder gone it’s a foot race and the rifle becomes a club.
3. No good method of measuring a charge.
In the tap loading demo.....
Several shots were “flub”s.
If you are depending on a quick shot to save your life, are you going to use a method that produces flubs?

The bottom line.......
I believe the method demonstrated by BP Maniac Shooter is cheating.
It does not require a great deal of skill.

I think we need to up the ante.

I mean this with no disrespect.
I commend the OP for his experiments in history.

In my next post, I’ll discuss how this could be done more conventionally.

 

[French Colonial]

1. Mark is doing this exactly as I have seen it described in period writings, tapping the butt of the gun to the ground in order for inertia to seat the ball down the bore. No ramrod.

2. Because the ball is not patched it is undersized in relation to the bore and will almost fall down on the powder, tapping the butt on the ground is insurance to see it gets there.

3. Some worry about the ball not going all the way down and becoming an obstruction and ringing the barrel, not going to happen, the ball is so undersized there would not be enough pressure build up to cause any damage.

 

[54ball]

So.....
I got my rifle out.
How can I load this rifle quickly and more importantly load it well quickly.

I come from a fire service background.
A rookie has to learn to be geared up and packed out very quickly. Not only do they have to be “packed out” very quickly, it has to be done correctly.
All zippers fastened. All buttons and hooks snapped. All straps tightened.

It would take an unpracticed person 5 minutes just to get the turnout gear on.
The standard time to get turnouts on is 1 minute.
The standard time to get the SCBA on on top of the turnouts is one minute.
Every fireman is required to be geared up and packed out in 2 minutes.
Many guys can do this much, much faster.
Some can be in gear and on air in one minute. That’s with everything done correctly.

It’s funny the quickest guys actually look slow. There is no waisted motion. There is no quick and violent movements. They are not slinging stuff everywhere. The quickest guys are very methodical, no hint of hurry or panic....they get it done.

The quickest guys and gals are methodical.
They practice.
They have a system.

Looking at the rifle......
Think....how can I do this quickly and efficiently and do it safely.

I’ll let this sink in.

 

[54ball]

1. Mark is doing this exactly as I have seen it described in period writings, tapping the butt of the gun to the ground in order for inertia to seat the ball down the bore. No ramrod.

2. Because the ball is not patched it is undersized in relation to the bore and will almost fall down on the powder, tapping the butt on the ground is insurance to see it gets there.

3. Some worry about the ball not going all the way down and becoming an obstruction and ringing the barrel, not going to happen, the ball is so undersized there would not be enough pressure build up to cause any damage.

Yep.....
But are these primary or secondary sources?
I have seen some of this too and I question a lot of it.
Let’s take spit loading......
I have heard this being applied to Wentzel. I have my doubts.
Spitting a ball down the bore on run...
Nope......
Spit and tap was demonstrated on the TV show Sharpes Rifles but.......
That’s TV

The more I have looked into this, the more murky it becomes.
A lot, a lot this is based on assumptions.
I know of no account where Wentzel, Kenton or anyone actually describe how they do it.
There are possibly witness accounts but.....
What did they actually see? What did they assume?

 

[French Colonial]

I love it when people detached by decades upon decades doubt the words of contemporaries.

 

[54ball]

I love it when people detached by decades upon decades doubt the words of contemporaries.

Those contemporaries wrote pure baloney then just as modern folks do now.

Lewis Wentzel is one of those personalities that the more you dig, the less you actually know about the man.
Some of the stuff is just so “over the top” that the truth is really hard to discern.
The guy is an enigma.

Most who study 18th Century history agree that Wentzel could reload his rifle at a sprint or at a dead run.
Just how he actually did it....we really don’t know. I think his contemporaries knew very little of how exactly how he did it.
Tap loading is certainly possible, maybe even likely, but a measured and rammed load is a possibility as well.
Wentzel’s skill is noted to be exceptional. We have to ask, is tap loading exceptional????

Let’s pull away from Wentzel and look at other sources.....

Smaller ball for quick loading.....
There are some accounts recommending small ball sometimes polished or worked for rapid loading of a rifle.
Duane’s Handbook for Riflemen recommends smaller ball for quicker loading as well as cartridges for rapid fire.
Duane’s book was heavily criticized then but it does offer some possible insight.
Duane’s work is somewhat plagiarized from British and French sources with a little “Caintucky lore” thrown in......

1811 account “Creek War”......
A young girl witnessed her father sewing buckskin patches around lead ball for quick loading from his pouch......
(Alabama Department of Archives and History)
I find the above account very interesting. Here we have a man preparing for quick loads.

Just from the info presented so far....
Wentzel could reload on the run.
Smaller ball including bare ball are mentioned.
Prepared loads such as sewn patched ball mentioned.
Cartridges mentioned in Duane’s book. Cartridges are interested because it was a known practice for military arms. Duane’s book suggests cartridges and a box to be used with the rifleman’s pouch.

All I’m saying is, there is a lot to this when this onion is peeled.

My personal dabbling into experimental archeology concerning rapid rifle loading.....

Right now the big challenge I see for me is the rammer.
The rammer can be pulled and rammed down rather easily. For me the big trick is returning it. That’s where I fumble....
Returning the ramrod quickly and efficiently.
I’ll post more on this....
It is rather interesting.

 

[French Colonial]

We look forward to seeing your video

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks, Mark. Never a dull moment in your videos, and this one was a lot of work! Way to go.

Always go hunting with a fella slower than yourself.

 

[hanshi]

Uuuh...But my mother told me I might fall and put my eye out!

 

[tenngun]

Fun video, entertaining. But as a relatively newbie BP shooter, I'm wondering how he can be sure the ball is seated down on top of the powder and both compacted down unto the without using the ramrod? Seems kind of dangerous to me.

Speed loading is dangerous in any situation with an ml. As a new shooter the first thing you need to get used to is twenty shots might represent an whole afternoon of shooting
Military requires priming the pan before you load,
Brits expected their solders to be able to do four shots a minute. Even two a minute can get an ml toasty. With all other factors gone you can get a cook off just from a hot barrel running ball home
Howsomever should you need a quick second shot you need to weigh your options. You MAY get hurt or even killed from a bad load or a cook off. But you will be killed if you don’t shoot. What choice do you got
I think all of us have tried such silly things, I know I have, but know for sure it’s highly recommend not to…. Unless someone can hold your beer and a hospital is close

 

[M. De Land]

Speed loading is dangerous in any situation with an ml. As a new shooter the first thing you need to get used to is twenty shots might represent an whole afternoon of shooting
Military requires priming the pan before you load,
Brits expected their solders to be able to do four shots a minute. Even two a minute can get an ml toasty. With all other factors gone you can get a cook off just from a hot barrel running ball home
Howsomever should you need a quick second shot you need to weigh your options. You MAY get hurt or even killed from a bad load or a cook off. But you will be killed if you don’t shoot. What choice do you got
I think all of us have tried such silly things, I know I have, but know for sure it’s highly recommend not to…. Unless someone can hold your beer and a hospital is close

I wonder if the pan needs to be charged at all for these emergency situations as most flint guns will fire over 50 percent of the time without a pan prime. A well tuned lock would most likely have a much higher percentage of primer-less pan charged ignitions.

 

[wiscoaster]

I wonder if the pan needs to be charged at all ...

??? You've posed me with an experiment to try when I can get back to shooting.

 

[tenngun]

??? You've posed me with an experiment to try when I can get back to shooting.

I’ve done it, but not 50%
One I saw was a guy get a couple of clatchs then he drew his knife and taped his flint. He had dumped his pan but on the third or forth tap he got an unexpected boom. Thankfully he minded his muzzle and gun was pointed in a safe direction

 

[M. De Land]

??? You've posed me with an experiment to try when I can get back to shooting.

I would add that I'm quite certain part of this ignition from physically non primed pans, is occurring from large flash hole "self priming" while loading on the move.

 

[M. De Land]

I’ve done it, but not 50%
One I saw was a guy get a couple of clatchs then he drew his knife and taped his flint. He had dumped his pan but on the third or forth tap he got an unexpected boom. Thankfully he minded his muzzle and gun was pointed in a safe direction

I should have said I've read that up to about 50 percent of the time ignition can occur with non primed pans. I've also read but not experimented, that inverted ignition with a normally primed pan is actually quite reliable.