Safety notch on lock

[Gordon Jabben]

I just bought an orginal percussion muzzleloading shotgun today and had a question about the half cock or safety position on the lock. In this position the hammer is a good 1 1/2" from the nipple. To me, it looks like the half cock position was to put the caps on the nipples and then the hammer was set back on the nipples. Am I right? If not, it looks like it would put a lot of stress on the main spring as it is almost to the full cock position.
Thanks

 

[Zonie]

The position of the hammer or cock when the gun is at half cock depends on where the half cock notch was cut on the tumbler and the length of the sear nose.

It does sound like your lock's half cock position would be nice for putting the cap on the nipple but in my opinion, that's where the hammer should stay after capping the gun.

Walking around with the hammer sitting right against the cap on the nipple is asking for problems.

Just a stout bump on the hammer could cause the cap to fire if the hammer is just resting on it.

As for wear and tear on the mainspring, that's shouldn't be a great concern.
Although springs do weaken if left in a stressed condition it takes years for much to happen to them. A few months of being flexed over the lift of the lock shouldn't cause any problems.

Take for example the springs in your car or truck.
They are loaded fairly heavily even when the car/truck is unloaded and it takes years before they start to sag.

I will say that I would much prefer to have the half cock notch on my guns holding the hammer/cock as you've described rather than having that dumb half cock position that comes on Thompson Center or Lyman GPR guns.

With those, the face of the hammer rests about 1/16" above the top of the cap when the gun is set at half cock.
That means the only way to cap those guns is to bring the hammer/cock to full cock position and then lower it all the way down to rest on the cap before bringing it back up to a somewhat safe condition at half cock.

 

In addition to what you've said, I would point out that a lot of (most?) flintlock mainsprings are subjected to the same amount compression as a matter of course.
I carried a double barrel shotgun around for years with the caps on the nipples because I didn't know any better. I never had an accident but the potential was there. The only time I would hesitate to use a half-cock notch is if it was too shallow or damaged. There is an established history of such locks existing, hence the expression, “don’t go off half-cocked”.

 

[ebiggs1]

I haven't taken a TC or Lyman shotgun bird hunting but I do use double barrel black powder cap lock shotguns for pheasant hunting. So I don't know if the “dumb” TC or Lyman half cock is any good at keeping the cap in place when hunting in CRP but I can say when the half cock exposes a good deal of the nipple the CRP can and will remove the cap for you. I don't care how tightly you pinch it to stay on, ya gotta watch it and be aware, it may be gone when you most need it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Walking around with the hammer sitting right against the cap on the nipple is asking for problems.

Just a stout bump on the hammer could cause the cap to fire if the hammer is just resting on it.

There are those who disagree. I'm one of them. I know I got thouroughly trounced in a previous thread on this subject.
But, fact it, it takes a very hard and sharp rap to ignite a cap. I have done some tests and never set one off. Years ago a much better test was published in Muzzle Blasts concluding that the hammer resting on the cap was a very safe practice for carrying a perc rifle in the field.

 

[tg]

Some folks put a leaher buffer atop the cap or a small tube that the hammer rests on as a precaution against a bump firing the gun, most just carry at half cock. I have never seen any evidence or excessive spring wear, it is not likley an issue with a quality lock.

 

[tg]

"There is an established history of such locks existing, hence the expression, “don’t go off half-cocked'

another interpretation of that is to not go off with the gun not ready to fire (which requires being in full cock position)

 

[matt denison]

With those, the face of the hammer rests about 1/16" above the top of the cap when the gun is set at half cock.
That means the only way to cap those guns is to bring the hammer/cock to full cock position and then lower it all the way down to rest on the cap before bringing it back up to a somewhat safe condition at half cock.

My opinion exactly. To lower it again requires pulling the trigger and keeping control of the cock with your thumb. Hard to teach to a newbie or Boy Scout. I'd prefer that the half cock be a little farther back to allow room for capping.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Like all teaching with guns, you do it with UNLOADED guns.

Only when the new shooter has demonstrated his ability and capacity to do the manual maneuvers correctly do you allow him/her to attempt it.

Then you do it with an empty chamber, or bore, with only a cap on the nipple.

Only after he has snapped caps after putting the cap on the nipple, and lowering the hammer down, safely, then back to the half-cock notch, do you allow the newbie to load the barrel or chamber.

Kids and adults with small hands may not be able to cock the gun's hammer using only their thumb. Let them do it their way, provided they are consistent, and safe! :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:

BTW, I don't particularly like the way the T/C and Lyman locks are designed, but I understand why others like them. I don't have any problem with folks who use them. I do think its going a bit far to suggest that you can't pinch a cap enough to make it stick on a T/C or Lyman nipple during hard field or range use. I have done that for more than 30 years, and only remember losing a cap once- when I didn't pinch it. And that occurred during my earliest days shooting percussion guns.

I did lose a cap off a .36 cal. Colt Replica revolver when the #10 caps I was using were too big for the #10 nipple on the Italian made gun. I had to use a straight line capper to put caps on the nipples of that gun, so I changed the nipples for stainless steel, American-made #10 nipples, and had no further problems.

 

[Gordon Jabben]

Thanks guys for the replys. You are right, my flintlock spring would be under simular pressure at half cock, I guess but on this shotgun, it really looks odd when the hammer is in the safety notch. Others will think I have the gun cocked and ready to shoot.

 

[crockett]

Billy Akin: the undercut on the half cock notch is so a jar can't accidentally fire the gun. The hammer resting on a cap is asking for trouble- as has been stated.
The old Winchester Lever action was normally kept at half cock when a live round was in the chamber- you weren't supposed to lower the hammer on the cartridge.
Lot's of folks don't realize it but the world's finest shotguns- the English side by side, sidelock doubles costing $50,000 and up- these guns are passed from Father to son to grandson and they have a lock work that is almost identical to a muzzle loader. The side locks have leaf springs, tumblers, the whole bit. AND these guns are used for driven hunts- that is, shot a lot. In any event carrying your muzzle loader in the half cock notch should be fine unless there is something wrong with the spring, but as far as the design- use the undercut half notch.
THAT SAID, if you had a rifle and hunt where there is time before taking a shot, you can have a little metal tube that fits over a capped nipple and is long enough that the hammer doesn't contact the cap but the purpose isn't to relieve spring pressure- it is a positive safety approach and the hammer cannot contact the cap due to the tube.

 

[Zonie]

Walking around with the hammer sitting right against the cap on the nipple is asking for problems.

Just a stout bump on the hammer could cause the cap to fire if the hammer is just resting on it.

There are those who disagree. I'm one of them. I know I got thouroughly trounced in a previous thread on this subject.
But, fact it, it takes a very hard and sharp rap to ignite a cap. I have done some tests and never set one off. Years ago a much better test was published in Muzzle Blasts concluding that the hammer resting on the cap was a very safe practice for carrying a perc rifle in the field.

Folks should note I didn't say a light tap.
I said a "stout bump" with things like the gun slipping out of your hand and the hammer landing on a hard rock or any of a number of things that would rapidly drive the hammer into the percussion cap.

As for those who, concluded that the hammer resting on the cap was a very safe practice for carrying a perc rifle in the field, that explains why I hunt alone.

 

[crockett]

Rifleman 1776: I admit I've done both, not just the hammer down on a cap but on a 30-30 lever action- the hammer lowered down on a round in the chamber and same with a 45Colt Govt. AND I agree, generally safe BUT the problems occur by ACCIDENT. A gun is in the backseat of a car or bed of a truck or you are busting through brush- etc or getting out of a boat and the hammer catches on something and gets a lot harder yank than ever anticipated. Is the half cock really any better? I think marginally better but as I said the metal tube over the nipple/cap with the hammer down- the hammer can be pulled and fall and as long as the tube is there it can't contact the cap. But no system is ever foolproof.
We each have to live whichin our own safety zone.
Hunt alone- when I'm with others the deal is we load up AFTER leaving camp and unload before returning- and during the day we are on our own.

 

[SAJones]

Zonie: I agree with the TC capping problem, but my first ML rifle was an old TC. I learned to slightly pull the hammer back & cap w/o going to full cock. Can do it w/ fingers, but a capper makes it easier. About the only time I pull back to full cock & cap is on the firing line just before I shoot, like in matches.