Save The Drum And Nipple

[Feltwad]

There is nothing wrong with a re-conversion to flint if the gun was originally a flintlock and the work is conducted by an expert gunmaker.

The elegant beauty and function of the flintlock deserves to be on every rifle converted IMHO.

Not on the UK gun heritage by other countries when it is not their heritage mostly for financial gain.
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

Altering a 'Traditions' to any thing or any modern replica is not the issue it is the preservation of original antigue guns that is the point .
By fate we have them in trust .Yes flintlock have more appeal usually and to alter them back seems the ideal plan but so many guns have been poorly dodged up by want of skill by ignorant botchers out for perceived profit or simply to have' a flintlock' to shoot . When though we may have the ownership and the desire, even skill. It is' against preservation' which is Felt Wads & my owns principal concern.' Lord save the drum & nipple'! Rudyard

 

[RAEDWALD]

Is one preserving the history of firearms or the history of the individual gun? I have a Baker Rifle which is percussioned with a drum and nipple. The Baker Rifle history is famous as a flintlock infantry rifle. Should I reconvert it back to the original flintlock to preserve the history of the Baker Rifle (it has a Henry Nock lock)?

I should have preferred to have a flintlock Baker Rifle but my budget only extended to this percussion one. However, it came from Vigo in Spain, is a non Ordnance one and has never carried a bayonet. The conversion is clearly not British and likely done in Spain. It might have come to Spain for the Carlist wars (or by any other route and purpose in all honesty). If I keep it as it is then I am preserving the history of that rifle which is unique to it.

Buildings can have long histories too. My current house is an 18th century peasant house with additions from the 19th and 20th centuries. The previous owner wanted a new house but could not afford one so it has been rendered within and without and fitted with modern 1980's fittings. He was very pleased with it. It is a fine little house (and will be on sale soon for €85K[$100kUS] in the unlikely event anyone here wants a country house in west central France]) and I am moving to a terraced town house of the 14th century which burned down in the 1960's and was rebuilt internally as modern. Should I take it down and rebuild it to a 14th century copy? Actually I am fitting central heating, new electrics and plumbing and totally redecorating because I want a house comfortable to live in. Were it rare it should be returned to it's original state but both of these houses are common around here and are working buildings. So I come to the same conclusion as with the Baker Rifle. It bears it's whole history. Whether 14th or 21st century. Apart from the analogy to the rifle I mention the house as once one decides to return it to it's 'historical' days what 'history' do you choose? A medieval town plot against the town wall of the late Hundred Years War? 16th century pair of shops? 17th century pair of artisans dwellings, 20th century office? Once you arbitrarily choose one period over another you are dismissing the other histories. My new house is a living dwelling and my history is as valid as those before me. It is the sum of all of it's life. Thus for the Baker Rifle. It bears the evidence of all of it's life. Possibly from a bright eyed youngster playing at soldiers in a Volunteer Rifle Company who had no need for a bayonet but liked a pretty twist barrel through rough and vicious campaigning of the Carlist Wars to a sporting life in peaceful hands upgraded to the new percussion caps for cold winter work in the Cantabrian mountains until it reached honourable retirement as a wall display.

But wait. Or Hwaet ! as they might say in the Mead Halls. The twist barrel is slightly corroded on one side, the wood is cracked, badly repared and dirty. The rear sight has one corner knocked off and the ramrod has been long replaced by a wrought iron simple replacement. Should I break the stock to undo the iffy long past repair, strike off the barrel so that is smooth again and replace some odd size Spanish nipple with new. All so it can bark again in full glory? Or leave it to slumber as it is?

All this is posted here to illustrate that the drum and nipple/flintlock reconversion ethical debate is not unique to muzzle loading guns. Each of us will position ourselves differently along the axis from untouched in all it's rusty grime to rebuilding and repairing to look like new. I like the tale of it's history that my Baker shows as it is, but I want to be able to use it from time to time safely. I like the tale that my new house tells but I want to be warm and comfortable so am adding to it's history by modernising it's interior but the basic building and medieval plot, wells, (cut down) town wall remain untouched. The 1960s rebuild is akin to it have been converted to breechloading having progressed from matchlock to flintlock and then percussioned; not to mention rifled at some point..

Apologies for the ramble but the answer to the OP is not 'yes you can reconvert' nor 'no you must not'. As so often in life; it all depends......

 

[SamTex1949]

"DRUM and NIPPLE" sounds very much like an Old English Pub !

 

[Griz44Mag]

"DRUM and NIPPLE" sounds very much like an Old English Pub !

That sounds like a bar that has a band and a barfly. (Sorry Zonie, I HAD to.....)

 

[Wyoming Jim]

Question: are we talking about conversions made back to flintlock, 20-21st century, or those made prior?

 

[Griz44Mag]

Question: are we talking about conversions made back to flintlock, 20-21st century, or those made prior?

Question - Why does it matter?
If the item is owned by the individual - and if it is not illegal, does that person have the right to do with it as he\she deems appropriate.
There are some historically important sites where the law does protect the site - from some - but not all changes the owner can make to it.
Guns of any type or age are not on that list.
It is sad that some older guns are modified, however, it is not wrong or illegal.
State governments all over the country are conducting buy back programs for guns of all types.
These guns are destroyed, melted, crushed, sold as scrap iron.
Some of those are highly prized and sought after, but the owners of those guns have elected to turn them in knowing they would be destroyed. Did they have the right to? Yes. Sad, absolutely, but they do have the right. The question asked here in this thread - is it WRONG to destroy or change a gun just because it is old. Most of these have no claim to fame or historical importance - other than being just being old. Do "We The People" have the authority to tell an individual that they do not have the right to do with their own possessions as they see fit? Or do we allow special interest groups or government to make all our decisions for us? That form of government and personal infringement is not part of our rules for this country. That set of rules was laid down in the late 1700's - we call it our Constitution and along with the Bill of Rights attached, is the very foundation of our being.

 

[Rudyard]

Guns altered prior would be a rare group other than surplus Govt arms say Civil War got made flintlock for the Africa & other markets even unfired Whitworths got bored out & sold for the Africa trade . .But I believe we are talking about mid twentieth century alterations done because the altered gun was more valuable or the owner just wanted a flintlock so many many got altererd often very badly to attain that . ,Ive known cack handed bods take a NEW breached ( period of original use) That is made percussion from flintlock by the makers with a new percussion breach by Manton and 'utterly munt it up.'!! . Raedwald makes an interesting comparison re houses but his Carlist wars commercial Baker would seem a clear cut' leave it be' even though it has little historic relevance outside of Spain . If all I've achieve is a " Think twice before you change things" I've done something of worth .
Rudyard

 

[Feltwad]

For what been said in this thread on the drum and nipple back to flintlock lets hope for UK heritage that these guns stop in the UK and not sold to other countries to be butchered and reconverted back to flintlock. But I am a patriot and value our gun heritage SAVE THE DRUM AND NIPPLE } if we don't nobody else will .
Feltwad

 

[Griz44Mag]

For what been said in this thread on the drum and nipple back to flintlock lets hope for UK heritage that these guns stop in the UK and not sold to other countries to be butchered and reconverted back to flintlock. But I am a patriot and value our gun heritage SAVE THE DRUM AND NIPPLE } if we don't nobody else will .
Feltwad

I appears that you have your task laid out in front of you.
Good wishes to you and your quest.