Scalping v/s Butcher knives

[Robin Camp]

I just read an interesting article about knives owned and/or carried by the Lewis & Clark expidition. What is the difference between scalping knives and butcher knives? The article suggested that butcher knives were prefered. Anyone know why?

 

[pichou]

Scalping knives were made for the Indian trade. For whites, the butcher would be more familiar as a everyday tool.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

Well, I'll bite. What's the difference?

 

Scalping knives were made for the Indian trade. For whites, the butcher would be more familiar as a everyday tool.

Maybe, but as you know there is a tendency to split certain items off as NDN or white. Charlie Hanson did this same thing a lot and it has been misinterpreted. I would probably say that scalpers were designed for the fur trade and part of that was the NDN trade.

If you want to see a great example of a scalper look up Pichou's recent post on the topic. He did a fine job recreating one based dug relics. The scalper in general had a thin blade with a sharp upswept point, 6-7" long, a tapered half tang and a hardwood haft attached in a saw cut slot with iron pins.

Butchers were slightly thicker in the blade, also slightly upswept, but with a more blunt clipped point. They also generally had tapered half tangs, but the haft was wooden (generally) slabs attached with iron pins. Blade lengths varied from 5-10". 5-7" blades were more common prior to 1840, and the longer blades increased in occurrence with the rise of the buffalo trade.

There are very good resources on this topic listed in the back issues of the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. You can find them on the web and either buy the back issues reasonably or request the individual articles through interlibrary loan at your local library.

Sean

 

[crockett]

There is some thought that the butcher knives were made of superior steel. It is true that scalpers were sold as common and warranted so there was likely a difference in quality among the scalping knives. So... the warranted scalpers may have been as good as the butcher knives.
On the other hand, I've done quite a bit of research on this and the evidence about superior steel in the butcher knives may or may not be true, hard to tell. A lot of the butcher knives were supplied by John Wilson. There was no capital "J" at the time, "I" was used instead so John Wilson knives were stamped I. WILSON. The preference for butcher knives may actually been a preference for knives made by I. WILSON, in other words a brand name preference rather than a style preference.
What is the difference between a scalper and a butcher? Both are thin bladed knives. Although the fur companies always listed scalpers as scalpers and butchers as butcher, the terms MAY have been used interchangeably among the trappers. Mountain men almost always referred to their knives as "butcher" knives, the few exceptions are a tale by Townsend in which he says the semi-famous mountaineer Richardson had a "scalper". Lewis Garrard uses the terms interchangeably but he was post 1840 and later indicates the knives were made in Massachusetts so they were Green River butcher knives not scalpers. Catlin says that scalpers were butcher knives but then identifies scalpers as having a "GR" stamp- a pattern listed as a scalper with the fur companies. A scalper has a sharp point, often slightly up swept. It looks similar to a French Chef's knife. A butcher knife has a blunt point with a hump on the top of the blade near the point- the typical butcher knife still being sold by Russell/Green River works and commonly available.
Which should you use? Well hoss you go ahead and scratch your own fleas any way you want. I would say the butcher knives were more popular with the trappers but if that sharp rakish point on a scalper just has you drooling, then that's what you ought to tote.

 

Hey Dave,

In any of your travels through the literature, have you ever noted a reference to the Green River operation making scalpers? I can't recall it off hand, but I know the English kept making them until at least the 1890's for HBC.

Sean

 

Senor Prophet,

A third option is the common case knife or cartouche knife (pronounced car-toosh). These were common European kitchen knives that were imported in large numbers for the fur trade. In general, they were 6-8" long, fairly straight with a bit of a drop or spear point. They had forged bolsters, full tangs, and either wood or green bone scales pinned on with iron pins. I saw a post from RodL some time back and he made one of these including the copper sulfate stained bone scales. There's an article on them in the MFTQ, and if you're interested google the Upper Missouri Outfit of the AMM. They have a handbook available in which Alan Chronister talks about these three knife types. Another great and cheap resource is the Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook which is available through Track of the Wolf and other sources. It has line drawings of of these and other knife types and includes variations through time.

Sean

 

[pichou]

The HBC kept making scalpers for areas where scalpers had been traded... like around the Bay. In the west, they introduced other styles.

The American story is similar... the AFC and others at first imported scalpers, but those were eventually replaced by butchers as the fur trade moved west. Probably why you don't see many Plains Indian scalpers in those fancy sheaths. Lots of I. Wilsons in those though.

BTW they did have a capital 'J' but I was the latin form. Brits! :youcrazy:
:haha:

 

[crockett]

Sean: I haven't seen any Russell scalpers and I can't recall them on any fur company list but there was an ad I saw a few month's back on Russell knives and in the list was scalpers. These would have been after 1840. If its important I can go looking for you but it is after 1840.
I think the Indian tribes in the US continued to buy scalpers up into the 1880's or until the buffalo herds were wiped out. A lot of the Indians were as much into the hide business as the "buffalo hunters" with their Sharps. etc.
These later made scalpers are an entirely different deal, by these later dates the Industrial Revolution had hit the US and there were all sorts of manufacturers. A lot of the extant scalpers are so rusted that the stamp marks are gone and the blades so worn that their original shapes unknown.
For the HBC, they have a list of the cutlers from whom they bought goods, this is a big help. I don't believe the HBC dealt in butcher knives, they were more into the trade with Indian tribes and carried scalpers, cartouche knives, dags, etc.
And Pichou brings up a good point, just because Indians bought scalpers and most mountain men butcher knives doesn't mean Indians did not buy butcher knives, they are commonly seen on war clubs, etc. And beside Richardson I'm sure some mountain men carried scalpers, the Miller painting of Pierre getting killed by a buffalo shows what looks like a scalper. Pierre was Metis- I would think they may have been more partial to scalpers.
BTW- I read that Black Harris may have had some Indian blood. This mixed blood matter is tough when the trappers have English names, unless something is said- you simply don't know. Also, in the Wyeth papers- he had a lot of bad powder and had three guns percussioned in the field, the caps being better at igniting the charge. Someone must of had some pretty good gunsmithing tools. Wyeth speaks of his black hat. I think Old Bill Willams had a black hat as well.

 

[Don Robertson]

So, where the Scalping knives actually sold as "scalping" knives ? Or was that just a "nick name" for a particular shaped blade ?

 

[crockett]

The 1809 Missouri Fur Co. lists knives and pen knives. The 1822 McKnight list has cartouche, buck, brass inlaid, and clasp. Robert Newell 1836 just lists knives, Wyeth lists butcher knives, , Indian knives, red handled Indian knives, buck handled knives, dirk knives. Ashley 1825 has knives, pen knife. Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co.- outfitted by the American Fur Co. have buck handled, green bone, scalping normal, cast steel butcher, in 1836 and w. Scalping, Wilson's Butcher, W. Cartouche, green bone handled in 1837, and the UMO in 1835 (AF Co. supplied) has Wilson butcher knives.
The NW Co. in 1820 has scalping knives, yellow handled folding knives, barrwood cartouche knives, sham stag , square joint folding, 7" dags, brass inlaid. The NW Co and HB Co. don't appear to have sold Wilson or Russell type butcher knives.

So.... sometimes just "knives" are listed, often these were goods going to Indians so "knives" may have meant scalpers, especially if the price was low. Other times scalpers and butcher knives are listed. The important thing to bear in mind is that it seems from the inventory lists that those in the trade had no problem identifying a scalper, butcher, brass inlaid, dag, etc.

 

So, where the Scalping knives actually sold as "scalping" knives ? Or was that just a "nick name" for a particular shaped blade ?

While some were used for that on occasion, it was just a nickname. These were a generalized tool, not a specialized tool for fighting or peeling craniums.

Sean