School Me on Tradeguns

[Smokey Plainsman]

Guys am interested in a 20 bore flintlock tradegun, or fusil, or fowler. I understand these were popular with woodsman during the 18th century. Were they used by white people or mainly marketed to native peoples?

Just super interested in them. Seems like a great “all rounder” for a woodsmans survival, hunting, protection type gun.

Thoughts?

-Smokey

 

[Flintandsteel]

A trade gun was just that. Designed and built for trade . Primarily with the Indian population. Cheap and versatile.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

A trade gun was just that. Designed and built for trade . Primarily with the Indian population. Cheap and versatile.

Was them the same as a fusil, or a fowler?

What’s the difference? Is a fowler more of a fancy gun? What’s a fusil?

 

[Brokennock]

The smoothbore, whether "trade gun," fowling piece, smoothrifle, fusil, or light musket, is very versatile, and this was popular universally. Trade guns were imported for the indian trade but were common with whites as well. The Type-G "Carolina Gun," was found spread far and wide from south of the Carolinas on up into Pennsylvania and Ohio. Remnants have been found all the way into Canada there, eh. But, evidence of them does get thinner the farther north and west one looks. But then, one starts seeing evidence of the later, but we didn't get further west until "later," Northwest Trade Gun. And of course French influenced areas had the Fusil des Chase and Fusil des Fin. Interestingly, despite the tension between the British subjects who inhabited New England and their French neighbors to the North prior to the end of the F.&I. One can see a lot of French Fusil des Chase/Fin influence on many Colonial New England fowling pieces.
Properly loaded, a 20 or 16 gauge smoothbore can be used for almost anything one needs in the lower 48 and much of Canada. With a properly built fowling piece/trade gun/Fusil, we are talking about a surprisingly light and handy firearm. What's not to like?
I can't explain why, but I find my smoothrifle is a little heavier than my Fusil des Chase, but feels more than "a little heavier." They are very similar dimensionally. The butt of the Fusil makes it look like it should be heavier and awkwardly balanced. It is not.

Hope this gets you started. There are lots of great books out there that focus solely on trade guns or fowling guns. And folks better versed and more articulate on the subject than I. I'm sure some of them will be around here shortly.

 

[Brokennock]

Was them the same as a fusil, or a fowler?

What’s the difference? Is a fowler more of a fancy gun? What’s a fusil?

You will find that often there are cost cutting measures with some of the trade gun designs. Architecture might be similar but the trade guns will often have nailed on but plates. Trigger guards are more likely to be made of bent to shape flat stock instead of nicely finished castings. They are more of a mass produced item.

Explaining the difference between the Fusil des Chase/Fin and a fowling piece is a little tougher for me. That is where we need those more articulate folks. To my mind the Fusil des Chase is the blurry line between a light musket (French of course) and a Fusil des Fin, with the later being the French equivalent of an English fowling piece or "buck 'n' ball" gun.

 

[Travler]

Merry Christmas Smokey,
I bought a NW Trade Gun a few years ago. It is a North Star brand. My understanding is that it is a replica of what was traided to the natives for furs etc. In the Pacific northwest. I am sure there are folks who know how to compare against a European fouler better than I can. In general they are inferior to a rifle of the same era with regard to how they were built. My piece is of very fine quality and It shoots very well. By inferior I mean low cost production inferior. Items like a flat sheet of brass nailed onto the butt is normal. No inletting for the trigger gard and the brass serpent side plate and no patch box is simply a cost cutting design. Some items are designed for the environment like the oversized trigger guard for shooting with thick gloves or mittens.
They are fun to shoot. Patched round ball, buck and ball or bird shot, light to carry quick to pull up, balanced pretty good all make it a fun gun.
Also with just a front sight, and aging eyesight is a good match for me. And with flint and smoothbore I always have a good life to tell if I miss....which is not often....wink.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi,
Merry Christmas!
There is a good book with great pictures, dimensions, and information, the book title is "For Trade and Treaty by Ryan R. Gale ( highly recommended )
I am building mine mostly from scratch. The only store bought piece is the lock.( Davis trade gun lock )
It would have been cheaper ( in time dollar value ) to purchase the gun parts, but I wanted to see if I could do it.
Great venture!
Making the butt plate from 1/8" brass, making the barrel from seamless DOM tubing ( 5/8" bore ) making the trigger guard from 10 gauge flat stock. Now to make the ram rod and ram rod pipes.
The pictures from the book mentioned above helped very much.
Cutting and inletting the stock from a walnut blank is easy.
Building these guns are no less labour intensive than regular long rifles, the end finishing is much less though.
Trade guns were made with 36" and 48" barrels. I chose to work with a 36" barrel ( I'm older!)
It was fun making the trigger guard, working from a 2" x .110 X 11 3/4" flat stock. Then cutting the flat stock back to 1" width and 1/2" width was easy enough with an angle grinder. The end result is a rather crude trigger guard.
I would prefer a more refined trigger guard, as there is on a long rifle. But to follow style is what it is all about.
A smooth bore is a lot of fun to shoot. Fast reloading is easy with these guns, and they shoot almost anything you can cram down the barrel.
If you jug choke the barrel you can really tighten up the shot pattern. Also using plastic ( yecht ) shot cups, ( card board cups work better) really extends your reach. A traditional load of powder, wad, shot, and card really gives a very open shot pattern limited to twenty yards ( or less ).
If you are going to shoot, ...............shoot well and hard, get all or most of your lead on a tight group at thirty five to forty yards.
There are several cost saving items on traditional trade guns that I do not like, ie: the nails in the butt plate instead of screws, cheap and simple thin gauge flat butt plate. And most of all is the poor fitting screw ( bolt ) passing at an angle through the trigger guard, and stock up into the barrel tang. ( guess it was cheaper at the time, but not very appealing to the eye )
A gun of this power and potential coming in at under six ( 6 ) pounds is very attractive.
I made a New England fowler two years ago, the bore size was the same ( .625" ) 5/8" but the stock was much more graceful.
So have fun in your journey of black powder shooting, it is a great past time. I only wish I had a few more years to enjoy it.
Fred

 

[mushka]

F G Ford, I am 75 and I don't worry or think of the fewer years ahead. I make every effort to enjoy what I have today, after all today is all I have. Try and make the most of it in the now and you'll be much happier.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The basic main difference between a fowling gun, a fusil, fusee or trade gun is who is saying it and where. At it simplest description, they are the same. Differences come into play based on who made the gun which determines architecture and when the gun was assembled. Earlier guns seem to be more finely made and later guns such as the Northwest Trade Gun are made with straighter stocks and simpler parts for reduced production costs.

The book by Gale is good. So is the book "Flintlock Fowlers" by Grinslade. Either of these books will do a lot better job of schooling you on the characteristics of the flintlock smooth bored gun.

The smooth rifle is built to a rifle like architecture, with front and rear sights, octagonal swamped barrel of smaller than 20 gauge bore. It will be heavier than a smooth bored fowling gun.

 

[rich pierce]

Books are great.

 

[tenngun]

If you look up fusil today in a computer you will be taken to pages about French shot guns.
When we try to hammer, fusil, trade gun, fowling piece in to a slot it laves a lot of grey area.
The first trade guns were just the light muskets made for private ships to carry. France and England went after these, but the Dutch got there first.
Trade guns were made pretty inexpensive, leaving out details found on finer guns, but they still had to answer the demands of the market, and pass the same proof test that other finer guns did. The early English trade fusil was made in imitation of French guns to woo the market. Later several countries would supply the NWG looking almost exactly the same. The dragon side plate a must.
Indians bought the guns but they were also very popular among French Canadians
Milita requirements put a light musket at least in the hands of every household. Those that could not afford it could draw from public stores
Settlers wanted a gun for protection and might take a meal or two, most planned on raising their own dinners, so hog and garden was more important then deer and deer hunting.
The French light musket used by French settlers was little different from the FDC and NWG chiefs grade compared well to a good quality fowler. While an officers privet fusil would look like a slimed down kings musket.
Private makers would turn out smooth rifles back in the day that were called ‘rifle mounted fusils’.
Beer ale stout porter Pilsner american Pilsner white ale pale ale Indian pale ale bitters.....yeah fowler fine fowler fusil light musket trade gun chiefs gun aaaaggggghhhhh

 

[Cruzatte]

Guys am interested in a 20 bore flintlock tradegun, or fusil, or fowler. I understand these were popular with woodsman during the 18th century. Were they used by white people or mainly marketed to native peoples?

Just super interested in them. Seems like a great “all rounder” for a woodsmans survival, hunting, protection type gun.

Thoughts?

-Smokey

Oh indeed they were quite well liked by French Canadians, New England settlers, and others. As to the kind and style, well that would be entirely cultural, and reflective of time and place.

 

[spudnut]

And dont forget fuke...lol

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Very cool. Interesting to read some whites carried them, not just the Native American peoples.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks friends! Going to buy “For Trade or Treaty” and read it thoroughly to get a better idea.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Guys so of course you can shoot roundballs in these, right? Did they ever do that in the old days or were these more considered a shotgun and used with shot?

Can you actually get decent groups with roundballs with them?

 

[Carbon 6]

Here's something to read too.

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...ploads/2019/06/1966-B14-Indian-Trade-Guns.pdf

 

[Zonie]

Guys so of course you can shoot roundballs in these, right? Did they ever do that in the old days or were these more considered a shotgun and used with shot?

Can you actually get decent groups with roundballs with them?

Check out our Smoothbore section to learn just how well a smoothbore can do when it's loaded with a roundball.

Out to 50 yards, a properly fitting roundball over a powder load the gun likes can be quite accurate. Beyond 50 yards, things get a bit "iffy".

The biggest problem with a smoothbore doing accurate shooting with a roundball is most of them don't have sights.
Some have added sights to their smoothbores and some just learn to know where it's going to hit on the target.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Guys so of course you can shoot roundballs in these, right? Did they ever do that in the old days or were these more considered a shotgun and used with shot?

Can you actually get decent groups with roundballs with them?

Yes, round balls can be shot from smoothbores. Use as being predominately shot for fowling or round ball for larger game would depend on location and what is the game to be hunted. Considering that there is most often no rear sight the definition of a decent group needs to be clarified. By the way sights are not uncommon, but rear sights are not allowed in most smoothbore, round ball competition. Of course your sighting eye becomes your effective rear sight. Elevation and windage are controlled by placement of your cheek on the stock.

Now then, a really great group for me is 3" off a rest at 50 yards. I have a hard time keeping 5 shots on the standard 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper shooting off hand. The large ball makes up for a lot of the group size and knowing the performance limitations will make you a better hunter to make the most effect with your gun.

 

[Treestalker]

Here's something to read too.

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...ploads/2019/06/1966-B14-Indian-Trade-Guns.pdf

Wow! This showed me a picture of a late percussion trade gun by Hollis, which showed me the practical use of my Springfield .58 cal. barrel, which Mr. Hoyt is boring out to smooth for me. Thank you for that link, Carbon 6!