Scottish treker fandabi dozi

[tenngun]

saw a few of the vids from this site. Not seen anything on guns but much on seventeenth eighteenth century life on the move. From camping to cooking to clothing, fun site to watch.

 

[Carbon 6]

Let me help you with a link.

https://www.youtube.com/user/fraperdave

 

[Nyckname]

Let me help you with a link.

https://www.youtube.com/user/fraperdave

I was going to post that t'other day, along with

after mentioning kilts in another thread, got interrupted and it slipped my mind.

 

[Nyckname]

...Not seen anything on guns...

Look for feeds on Jacobite Rebellion demonstrations.



(I tried cuing it up, but that's not working here. Scroll to about 5 min 45 sec if you want to go straight to the smoke.)

 

[Tacksman45]

Not strictly a Jacobite video, but here is one from Youtuber Lindybeige working with Johnthan Spounge of the Academy of Historical Arts in the UK, demonstrating the Highland Broadsword and Targe. His videos and perspectives on various historical subjects are very interesting and entertaining in my opinion:

 

[Tacksman45]

saw a few of the vids from this site. Not seen anything on guns but much on seventeenth eighteenth century life on the move. From camping to cooking to clothing, fun site to watch.

Just watched some of his videos, and I really like what he is doing. There is a huge amount of historical emphasis put on the martial aspect of Highland culture, and not enough about the day to day lives of Scottish highlanders in my opinion.

 

[Nyckname]

...demonstrating the Highland Broadsword and Targe...

There are a few people with similar videos, along with other forms of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts).

 

[Tacksman45]

There are a few people with similar videos, along with other forms of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts).

Anything from The Cateran Society is great, Youtuber gilbride100, who I think might be the (or one of the) founders of the Cateran Society has really great videos on this subject.

Here is another old favorite of mine, it is a short video but it shows three tricks, which are great for illustrating that the Scottish Broadsword is more than just a "huge meat clever." (Notice that I said "more than just." )

 

[Nyckname]

...not enough about the day to day lives of Scottish highlanders...

I'm trying to find the others I've seen. For some reason, English country life are coming up easier.

 

[Nyckname]

There are people doing Norseman trekking, but I guarantee you won't find them using black powder.

 

[Nyckname]

Oi, buckskinner35, I found it,

 

[Artificer]

I was going to post that t'other day, along with

after mentioning kilts in another thread, got interrupted and it slipped my mind.

That is no doubt the best Video I have ever seen on the different ways to wear the Plaid !! Thank you. Going to save that for future use to show others.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

There are people doing Norseman trekking, but I guarantee you won't find them using black powder.

Those are lots of fun too. Outside of guns and clothing style woodsman life changed little till the technological age. Every thing they do translates well to American frontiersman.

 

[MacRob46]

Not strictly a Jacobite video, but here is one from Youtuber Lindybeige working with Johnthan Spounge of the Academy of Historical Arts in the UK, demonstrating the Highland Broadsword and Targe. His videos and perspectives on various historical subjects are very interesting and entertaining in my opinion:

I thought the demo was interesting and learned quite a bit from it. However, he made an incorrect statement right out of the chute. Broadsword and backsword are terms which define the number of sharpened edges on swords. Therefore, you can have a "Viking broadsword" and most of them were. Also, there is no indication that tartan was ever used as a basket liner on the Scottish claymores.

 

[Artificer]

I thought the demo was interesting and learned quite a bit from it. However, he made an incorrect statement right out of the chute. Broadsword and backsword are terms which define the number of sharpened edges on swords. Therefore, you can have a "Viking broadsword" and most of them were. Also, there is no indication that tartan was ever used as a basket liner on the Scottish claymores.

Great points.

Yeah, I cringed at the video's description of Broadsword and Backsword, as well. The Backsword never seemed to have enjoyed the popularity the Broadsword did prior to and during the 18th century, with the exception of the Issued Military Backswords.

Basket Hilt Liners were normally made of Leather and Red was a favorite colour, though other colours and Buff were known as well.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There is also this...



LD

 

[MacRob46]

Great points.

Yeah, I cringed at the video's description of Broadsword and Backsword, as well. The Backsword never seemed to have enjoyed the popularity the Broadsword did prior to and during the 18th century, with the exception of the Issued Military Backswords.

Basket Hilt Liners were normally made of Leather and Red was a favorite colour, though other colours and Buff were known as well.

Gus

It appears that most liners in original basket hilts were made to protect the front of the hand only and did not cover the entire interior of the hilt. While there are early hilts with full liners they seem to have been late additions.

The backsword blades and baskets for that mattter, which were made for issue to the Highland regiments were roundly condemned as being flimsy and were not liked by the average soldier. Informal surveys of the troops by the officer corps revealed they were much happier with the bayonet than the swords they were issued. I have attached a photo of what is purportedly an officer's sword which is on display at the Cowpens battlefield. It is a backsword and looks very much like the standard issue sword for enlisted men, with the exception of throat for the sheath. Of course the sword and the sheath fittings may have come from two entirely different places. I took the photo but do not remember if there were any markings on the blade. Just have to go back and look again, I guess.

 

[Artificer]

It appears that most liners in original basket hilts were made to protect the front of the hand only and did not cover the entire interior of the hilt. While there are early hilts with full liners they seem to have been late additions.

Yes, the development of the two bottom quillons of the basket hilt (also sometimes known as “lobes”) and the back quillon, as well as more metal in the hilt, did away with the need for a full liner over time, as the hilt developed.

The backsword blades and baskets for that mattter, which were made for issue to the Highland regiments were roundly condemned as being flimsy and were not liked by the average soldier. Informal surveys of the troops by the officer corps revealed they were much happier with the bayonet than the swords they were issued.

Before the Yorktown Victory Center in Virginia was renovated a few years ago, there was an example of an AWI, British issued “Enlisted Grade” Scottish Basket Hilt Broad Sword on display. Of course I could not see the scabbard covered blade, but the overall effect was of a very serviceable sword. Both the Hilt and Leather Scabbard it was exhibited in, were in unusually superb condition. That condition really surprised me, until I did some digging on the use of Enlisted Basket Hilt Scottish Swords in the FIW and AWI.

Generally speaking, Scottish Units who fought here in the FIW, still had a large percentage of Enlisted men who had been trained in the use of the Basket Hilt Sword before they joined the Military and quite a few had combat experience with the sword during the Uprising of the ’45. This is because many of the Enlisted Soldiers had come from the ranks of the “retainers” or “Men at Arms” in their Clans and who had trained/practiced/used the sword in civilian life. Older Enlisted Soldiers taught new/younger soldiers how to use the sword as well. So unlike other British Enlisted Soldiers who used their bayonets and did not use their issued Infantry Hangers, the Scottish Soldiers actually used their Basket Hilt Swords in combat in the FIW.

However, by the time of the AWI, there was almost no training given with the Basket Hilt Sword in civilian life, due to the Proscription Acts that had outlawed the use of Scottish Arms, except in the British Army. That meant this “new” generation during the AWI, had not grown up learning to use the Basket Hilt Sword, as earlier generations had. Though all Enlisted Ranks were armed with the Issued Basket Hilt Sword before coming over here in the AWI, most Enlisted Soldiers did not know how to use them.

Though I can only write this with certainty about the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, who never stopped using Enlisted Basket Hilt Swords after the Proscription Acts, most of the Enlisted Soldiers did not know how to use the Sword and they stored most of those Enlisted Swords not long after their arrival and for the rest of the War. Though I have not researched the other Highland Regiments here in the AWI as much as the “Auld Forty Twa,” generally they also stored most of their Enlisted Back Swords after their arrival. (Some Enlisted Swords were kept out of storage for ceremonial use, but not many.)

I have attached a photo of what is purportedly an officer's sword which is on display at the Cowpens battlefield. It is a backsword and looks very much like the standard issue sword for enlisted men, with the exception of throat for the sheath. Of course the sword and the sheath fittings may have come from two entirely different places. I took the photo but do not remember if there were any markings on the blade. Just have to go back and look again, I guess.

That is a GREAT Photo and thank you very much for sharing it! Though certainly not as fancy of a Hilt normally expected of Senior Officers, the hilt is fancier than expected of Enlisted Swords. There is additional finer ribbon work to the hilt and the pommel is the older “dome” shape, that was not common on AWI Enlisted Backswords.

I have tried in vain to get pictures of the Enlisted Basket Hilt Sword from the Yorktown Victory Center, but here is link showing the much simpler and more common style Hilt found on Issued Enlisted Backswords. Please also note the larger back quillon and cone shaped pommel, that are characteristics of Issue Enlisted Swords of the period.

http://www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/1757.htm

Gus

 

[MacRob46]

Yes, the development of the two bottom quillons of the basket hilt (also sometimes known as “lobes”) and the back quillon, as well as more metal in the hilt, did away with the need for a full liner over time, as the hilt developed.



Before the Yorktown Victory Center in Virginia was renovated a few years ago, there was an example of an AWI, British issued “Enlisted Grade” Scottish Basket Hilt Broad Sword on display. Of course I could not see the scabbard covered blade, but the overall effect was of a very serviceable sword. Both the Hilt and Leather Scabbard it was exhibited in, were in unusually superb condition. That condition really surprised me, until I did some digging on the use of Enlisted Basket Hilt Scottish Swords in the FIW and AWI.

Generally speaking, Scottish Units who fought here in the FIW, still had a large percentage of Enlisted men who had been trained in the use of the Basket Hilt Sword before they joined the Military and quite a few had combat experience with the sword during the Uprising of the ’45. This is because many of the Enlisted Soldiers had come from the ranks of the “retainers” or “Men at Arms” in their Clans and who had trained/practiced/used the sword in civilian life. Older Enlisted Soldiers taught new/younger soldiers how to use the sword as well. So unlike other British Enlisted Soldiers who used their bayonets and did not use their issued Infantry Hangers, the Scottish Soldiers actually used their Basket Hilt Swords in combat in the FIW.

However, by the time of the AWI, there was almost no training given with the Basket Hilt Sword in civilian life, due to the Proscription Acts that had outlawed the use of Scottish Arms, except in the British Army. That meant this “new” generation during the AWI, had not grown up learning to use the Basket Hilt Sword, as earlier generations had. Though all Enlisted Ranks were armed with the Issued Basket Hilt Sword before coming over here in the AWI, most Enlisted Soldiers did not know how to use them.

Though I can only write this with certainty about the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, who never stopped using Enlisted Basket Hilt Swords after the Proscription Acts, most of the Enlisted Soldiers did not know how to use the Sword and they stored most of those Enlisted Swords not long after their arrival and for the rest of the War. Though I have not researched the other Highland Regiments here in the AWI as much as the “Auld Forty Twa,” generally they also stored most of their Enlisted Back Swords after their arrival. (Some Enlisted Swords were kept out of storage for ceremonial use, but not many.)



That is a GREAT Photo and thank you very much for sharing it! Though certainly not as fancy of a Hilt normally expected of Senior Officers, the hilt is fancier than expected of Enlisted Swords. There is additional finer ribbon work to the hilt and the pommel is the older “dome” shape, that was not common on AWI Enlisted Backswords.

I have tried in vain to get pictures of the Enlisted Basket Hilt Sword from the Yorktown Victory Center, but here is link showing the much simpler and more common style Hilt found on Issued Enlisted Backswords. Please also note the larger back quillon and cone shaped pommel, that are characteristics of Issue Enlisted Swords of the period.

http://www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/1757.htm

Gus

Here is another photo of an enlisted man's sword. I did not take this one, it was given to me by the Tartans Museum and the sword was supposedly found in SW NC, where the Montgomery Highlanders were sent to displace the Cherokee. But, I do not know if that is factual. Thanks for your thoughts on sword usage.

 

[Artificer]

Wow, thanks for posting the additional picture! Though of the same general hilt style as the other picture you posted earlier, the ribbon work on this hilt of this sword is simpler to much simpler made and was therefore less expensive. I could see how that could have been or was an authentic Enlisted Man's Sword. (I don't mean to imply it wasn't an Enlisted sword, but without more provenance, like you, I can't be absolutely sure.)

I must also state that I do not know nearly as much as I would like to on who made the blades for the British Issued Enlisted Man's Basket Hilt Swords and to what quality standard they were made. Prior to the British Issuing Basket Hilt Swords to the Highland Regiments, the quality of blades available to civilians had some variation in quality, depending on what the owner could afford or how much his Laird or Sub Chief would pay for the arms of his retainers or "Men at Arms."

There is some at least somewhat conflicting information on the blades of the British Issued Swords. Some sources state they were made in England; while other sources say the blades came from the Germanic States and possibly "Dutch" sources (which could mean from a number of sources on the continent) and were only hilted and assembled in England. Having studied British Ordnance, I could see how either or both were true, but I can't document that to my satisfaction.

Gus

P.S. I got a real kick out of you mentioning Montgomery's Highlanders. My old unit did the Major's Coy, of the 42nd RHR for AWI, but we did Montgomery's Highlanders for FIW. Never found out exactly why we did that, though.