seeking info/ pictures of this J. S. Hawken half stock rifle

[Dwight Rutherford]

Herb,
I'll prevail upon you a little more regarding the rifling of this Hawken rifle. The reason I asked about the rifling shown here is this;
It is my understanding J.P. Gemmer bought the St. Louis Hawken establishment from S. Hawken in 1864. I had assumed that included the tooling which would have included the rifling cutting machine.
Now I have an original J.P. Gemmer rifle that looks like a "Hawken". (Please excuse my ignorance here as I am not versed in rifling terminology) the groves are squared not rounded as seen on this rifle.
Can you help me understand?
Thank you
Gemmer

 

[galamb]

If Herb don't mind too much I'll jump in a little here.

There are a few possibilities. So I'll start with what we "know".

We know that the Hawken's had at least one rifling machine.

As I had described here earlier (1:48, right hand twist, slightly rounded (but not like our round rifling today - based on the examination of the cutter(s)) that were observed with the machine at the time it was inspected.

The machine as studied was compared against a number of "the closest to pristine" barrels that could be found that were unquestionably made in the Hawken shop and the authors of the article concluded that a "slightly radiused groove" would have been the result of the machine, and was evidenced on the barrel. (but the machine could have been "loaded" with a square cutter - one was simply not found with the parts/pieces when it was examined)

Something else we know - Sam (for sure, quite a few examples) used barrels other than those that he/they made themselves. So it's entirely possible that in "later years" (after Jake's death) that it became more economical to use a "sourced" barrel.

(maybe you had to pay "extra" if you wanted a barrel built by them?? and by the time Gemmer took control of the shop you could probably buy a barrel at the hardware store cheaper than you could make one yourself - it would certainly be quicker saving minimally, a couple days in the production time)

If Gemmer did rifle the barrel he may have used a different cutter and otherwise adjusted/reset the machine to cut differently.

And finally, the "treatment" you see at the muzzle on any given barrel is "not the result" of the rifling machine but instead some custom hand work that followed.

There is another article floating around (will try and find it) that discusses how a significant number of Hawken barrels have some "relief" at the muzzle (which I referred to a coning) and there is yet other barrels that have a "choke" (measuring .0005") set some distance back from the muzzle (9" or so) that was "clearly intentional".

Again, that would have been hand work (and probably tedious at that) that was probably/possibly reserved for certain rifles that carried a larger price tag or were going to "someone important".

You can't group all Hawken barrels into a set of specs like you would a CNC produced modern lathe barrel - the handmade ones are all unique and even the early production barrels had "individual attention" in some cases making them "somewhat" different from each other.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Galamb. I do not know much about this subject. The muzzles of the rifles I pictured are filed that way according to Doc Gary White of the old GRRW. I asked him how it was done, thinking to cut my Bridger rifle I made the same way. He said he used to do it but that no customer appreciated it and that it wasn't worth the effort. I may still file my muzzle that way, after practicing on cut-off pieces of barrels.

 

[galamb]

This is one description of a “treatment” noted on a 50 cal barrel (NFI) that was studied in depth.

“the bore is a slight taper from the breech to a point about 9 ½” from the muzzle. Here a choke is apparent for about 8 inches, then from there to the muzzle, a slight flaring is seen. Measuring approximately .0005”, about ¼” inch from the end of the barrel, this flare suddenly increase an additional .002”, giving the impression of a slight funneling from rod wear. Close inspection has revealed that this is not the case, and that this is a deliberate relieving of the muzzle, in an effort to reduce rod wear, and more important, ease the starting of the patch and ball.”

The (overstated) rounded groves seen in the earlier (above) picture were undoubtedly done by hand with (probably) a small round file (or rat tailed file).

As is the common practice today by builders wishing to achieve the same effect, and may be added after the use of a coning tool, or independent of, depending on the exact effect you are trying to achieve.

If I was attempting to (as near exactly as possible) replicate an original that had this treatment (the rounded groves at the muzzle), I would probably attempt it.

But given my current talent level (read the probability of buggering something up ), I personally wouldn’t undertake the operation without significant practice on “scrap pieces” first.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

galamb, Herb,
Thank you both for your detailed responses.
I had thought the rounded grooves on the pictured rifle extended throughout the length of the entire barrel. Never occurred to me this was just a muzzle treatment.

 

[thatoneguy82]

Herb, I apologize for the apparent lack of gratitude, both on this forum and the other forum I had my question posted. You all have been immensely helpful, and with the help I have received I feel confident I have everything I'll need to make a reasonable recreation of the rifle I posted.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, KH. I hesitated to say anything, but the lack of acknowledgement of help is common, and I wouldn't want people to refuse to share what they know because of it. A bit more courtesy on all our parts makes the forums more pleasant.

 

[thatoneguy82]

I agree entirely.

When I clear my bench of some of the current crop of projects expect some progress pics. Going to undertake a later S. Hawken type rifle first with an assortment of parts I have had laying around for closing on a decade and a half.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Herb,
I'll prevail upon you a little more regarding the rifling of this Hawken rifle. The reason I asked about the rifling shown here is this;
It is my understanding J.P. Gemmer bought the St. Louis Hawken establishment from S. Hawken in 1864. I had assumed that included the tooling which would have included the rifling cutting machine.
Now I have an original J.P. Gemmer rifle that looks like a "Hawken". (Please excuse my ignorance here as I am not versed in rifling terminology) the groves are squared not rounded as seen on this rifle.
Can you help me understand?
Thank you
Gemmer

J. P. Gemmer was one of several employees working at the Hawken brothers shop before he bought the shop and the stamps. It is believed by members of the Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club who have done a lot of research into Hawken Rifles that Gemmer built quite a number of Hawken marked rifles. In fact Gemmer built and marked with the Hawken shop stamp after he became the owner of the shop. It is quite likely the nearly new Hawken evaluated by Baird was built by Gemmer.

Back to the barrels. Probably many of the barrels that came from the shop were rifled by different employees. This doesn't make any one superior to another one. It does explain why some of the barrels are different by using different cutters from there own kits and how the choke was cut or the relief at the muzzle. And this was done even when done on the same rifling machine.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Thank you.

 

[thatoneguy82]

I heard back from the gentleman who currates the firearms for the Montana Museum of History. Here are some pictures he was gracious enough to send, along with what he knew of the rifles history.







"Here is a photo of the tang and breech from above. The breech in front of the snail is about 1” flat-to-flat; the muzzle is .875” (7/8) flat-to flat.
I hope this is enough to get you going. Please let me know from time to time how you are progressing. If you get stuck, don’t hesitate to contact me.
This really is an unusual firearm. It was purchased by a Kalispell, Montana collector sometime in the first third of the 20th century at Webster Grove, Missouri. Webster Grove is a suburb of St. Louis and coincidentally was the home of Jacob Hawken’s son, Christopher Hawken. His house still stands, although it has been moved from its original location.
I wish I knew more about this rifle."

 

[donchew1]

Regardless of who "a man" might be such things are often not the final word.
The person I know who owns the original crooked 'S' Hawken stamp is also a builder of Hawkens. He once saw a review of a newly discovered original by John Baird published in American Rifleman. My friend called AR and told them the rifle in question had been built by him a dozen years ago. Not original despite being authenticated by very knowledgable John Baird. Some folks are that good.
BTW, I knew Baird also. This was a huge blow to his reputation.

Rifleman1776,
I was researching a custom built full stock Hawken rifle that I own, when I came across this old discussion. The rifle was highlighted in American Rifleman, Feb 1993 issue, in a John Baird article, titled "A Search for Authenticity". In this article, Baird discusses the process of authentication as he takes apart a Hawken Rifle, which in fact was built by a well known custom rifle smith. Is this the article you refer to, by chance?

Thanks!
Don

 

[Herb]

The photos of the J&S Hawken rifle that started this thread were taken by me 9/9/2013 at the Helena museum, and lifted probably from AMLR forum. I could re-post those photos, but they are too large for this forum, and I'm too lazy to scale them down. Here is Museum Technician Vic Reiman of the Montana Historical Society Museum and me. His phone number is (406)444-0609 and his E-mail is montanahistoricalsociety.org.

 

[plmeek]

Herb had sent me pictures of the subject rifle a few months ago so that I could post for him on another thread. I apologize for not posting them then but will post them here for Herb in the same order that thatoneguy82 originally posted them at the beginning of this thread.

 

[plmeek]

I got an error message when I tried to add one more photo. Evidently, the "Upload a File" button and forum software limits up to 10 photos per post. Here is the last photo from Herb.

 

[plmeek]

Last year, I noticed that the Montana Historical Society had updated their website and included on it new pictures of this J&S Hawken rifle as well as the Jim Bridger S. Hawken rifle. Here are some of the pictures from MHS. This is the first full length photo of the subject rifle that I've seen.

Here's an external view of the lock with a good shot of the nipple bolster. Dan Phariss has pointed out that this "TRYON" marked lock has a beveled edge that is a carryover from the flintlock period. This may be the only surviving J&S Hawken rifle that has a lock with a beveled edge. The implication is that this is a very early percussion lock. The hammer shape with the really wide vertical section also suggests a very early percussion lock. The rifle can, of course, be older than the lock, but it is one of several other aspects of this rifle that possibly dates it to the early 1830's.

Top view of the breech and tang. The breech bolster was either forge welded on the barrel or brazed on the barrel. The bolster could have been forge welded on the barrel by the barrel maker or it could have been added to a barrel blank prior to the final boring and rifling process. The bolster could have been brazed on prior to the final boring and rifling process or after that was done and even after the breech end of the barrel was threaded as brazing temperatures are far lower than forge welding temperatures.

Note the short tang on this rifle and the engraving on the tang. This rifle has engraving on several of its metal surfaces.

Here is a good picture of the inside of the lock.

Here is an excellent shot of the patch box with its floral engraving. This patch box shape/design is seen on two other J&S Hawken rifles.

The barrel lugs on this rifle appear to be dovetailed on. Some later S. Hawken rifles are known to have barrel staples, but dovetailed lugs may have been the norm for early J&S Hawken rifles. Another interesting artifact seen in this picture that is present on many antique guns by other makers are the rough file or grinding marks on the hidden flats of the barrel. The old gun makers didn't spend time trying to make pretty, parts that aren't normally visible.

 

[Herb]

Thanks a lot, Phil. Those are good photos. Herb

 

[ugly old guy]

Frequently people will not even respond when given answers to their queries, some of which people put a lot of effort into.

Sadly, that is so true, regardless of subject matter.

 

[plmeek]

Thanks a lot, Phil. Those are good photos. Herb

Thank you, Herb, for taking the time and making the effort to go to MHS and examine and photograph this important rifle and share the pics with us. You are the first person to do so in over 35 years. This rifle set all but forgotten in the MHS vaults until you made the trip up there.

John Baird and Ed Weber had examined and photographed the rifle back in the mid-1970s. They worked with Leonard Allen of Western Arms Corp of Santa Fe to produce an authentic production copy of the rifle. Ed Weber made a copy of the MHS rifle for Leonard Allen who sent it to Aldo Uberti to develop a mass produced authentic replica of an early J&S Hawken rifle. After Uberti made a proto-type and sent it back to Leonard Allen, the project stalled out and the rifle never went into production. Interest in the original J&S Hawken rifle waned and was overshadowed by the Jim Bridger S. Hawken rifle in the museum's collection. The museum didn't even bother to exhibit the J&S Hawken all this time.

Since your visit and rediscovery of the rifle, others have gone to the museum and examined and photographed the rifle and plans are in the works to write an in depth article about it. Most of the current effort is to research the original owner whose initials are engraved on the cheekpiece.

This rifle is important because it exhibits features that would place it chronologically between the Peterson Hawken in the Cody Museum and the presentation Atchison Hawken which is the only Hawken with an undisputed date on it--1836.

 

[Herb]

Phil, you are smarter than the average bear! I always enjoy learning from you. Thanks!