For a while I have been reading some bad comments about L&R locks. Thought it could be sour grapes. However, seeing these pictures makes me glad I have not bought one of their locks, and there is no way I will order one now.
Set trigger stopping at half cock
- Thread starter JonBishop
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All the parts need to be greased.. I use a toothpick after cleaning the lock. Oil will run into the wood over time. Also make sure that nothing is dragging on the wood. Smoke the lock in a candle flame. Install it then work it a few times and look for black spots. Shave away the black spots where there are moving parts. I have seen very few inletting jobs that weren't dragging somewhere. Sometimes it is harmless and other times it stops something from working. Even after I have had a rifle for a while, I look for shiny spots in the wood while cleaning.
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As said in other replies, your inlet may not be correct. Just because the trigger plate is flush with the stock does not mean it is mechanically correct. You need to measure with a depth caliper prior to inlet to make sure the trigger bar is of correct dimension to be right at the sear, but not compressing it. I suspect you are a tad too tight causing a slight depressing of the sear. Depending how you are cocking the lock, sometimes it will go completely into the full cock notch and sometime not. If it is completely into the full cock, the trigger pull would be harder than if it were just barely engaged into the full cock.
Jumping into halfcock when tripping the lock is most likely a failure of the fly. The fly appears to have a sloppy pivot.
Ha! I’m glad I could help. The set trigger seems to be the problem, or one of them. I took the set trigger out and reinstalled the trigger group. There aren’t any problems with cocking and release but the trigger pull is still kind of hard. Not hurting your finger hard but too hard I think. I’m now concerned that my trigger plate isn’t in the right spot. That it might be too far forward or back. Right now it is just rear of center of the sear. About 1/16”. I don’t know if this makes a difference. The sear isn’t hitting wood. I put some inletting black on to double check. I did sand the tumbler down with 220 grit. Didn’t seem to help. As far as the fly goes, I haven’t a clue. Is it too tall? Too short? Too much slop? I’ve no experience with these things. I’m going to continue the build with the single trigger for now. I can do the barrel lugs without affecting the lock and trigger can’t I? Or should I have already done the barrel lugs? Any insight welcome.
Thanks, Jon
Tom Compton
54 Cal.
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Jon. I sent a message. Look at the top of the page for an envelope shaped icon. Should be a red light or mark there indicating you have message(s).
Hi Tom. I haven’t received your message.
Jon
Jon
jimhallam
Pilgrim
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Hi
In the UK we call that a "detented lock" -- - the "fly" guides the sear away from the bent in the tumbler. The lock looks VERY rough-cast, which suggests that the purchaser was expected to do the hand-work which an Olde Tyme gunsmith would have done ;-)
Set triggers can be of a number of types --- some only work when set, others can be fired when the trigger is UNset -- - obviously a much harder pull. Look up terms like "double pole, double throw".
As for Old Hawkeye's comment, I did have a Southgate rifle which was set up requiring the trigger to be set before being cocked --- I don't know if this was unusual, as I am a revolver shooter mainly.
In the UK we call that a "detented lock" -- - the "fly" guides the sear away from the bent in the tumbler. The lock looks VERY rough-cast, which suggests that the purchaser was expected to do the hand-work which an Olde Tyme gunsmith would have done ;-)
Set triggers can be of a number of types --- some only work when set, others can be fired when the trigger is UNset -- - obviously a much harder pull. Look up terms like "double pole, double throw".
As for Old Hawkeye's comment, I did have a Southgate rifle which was set up requiring the trigger to be set before being cocked --- I don't know if this was unusual, as I am a revolver shooter mainly.
Pete G
76 Cal.
I think the forward trigger is mainly used for de-cocking.
Just to clarify: The front screw on the trigger asm adjusts how much movement of the front trigger is required to release (fire) the rear "set" trigger. The rear screw adjusts how high the rear trigger (the surface of the rear trigger that touches the center line extension of the sear) is when the trigger asm is not set. If the unset rear trigger stops the sear from fully entering the half cock notch, tighten (screw in) the rear screw so it holds the rear heavy set spring up higher thus allowing the rear trigger to rest lower and not interfere with the sear going into half or full cock. I am assuming the lock, fly, and inletting are all correct. Hope this helps.
Hi Ontario47. I think the inletting is correct. The fly on the other hand is unknown. I’m finding it hard to grasp the correlation between fly and set trigger. I’ve reinstalled the lock without the fly and the results are pretty much the same. If anything it cocks better at full cock. I did file the set trigger down some. I used various shims front and back on the trigger plate. A lot of different combinations. It seems as if it has a mind of its own. I’m continuing with the build. Got the barrel lugs done up today. I’ll come back to my trigger problem. I’ve spent a lot of time on it. I decided to go forward then come back to it. I’m laying out my ramrod thimbles now. I’m not letting this get me down. As PeteG said: “nothing that can’t be fixed”. As far as sending the lock back, well I’ve already drilled and tapped holes. I do appreciate all of the advise I’m getting. Thank you all. I’ll have another dumb question soon I’m sure.
Jon
Jon
"The fly on the other hand is unknown. I’m finding it hard to grasp the correlation between fly and set trigger. I’ve reinstalled the lock without the fly and the results are pretty much the same. If anything it cocks better at full cock." I added the emphasis.
JonBishop that should tell you that you have a problem with the fly! Now I have never had an L&R lock or even seen the inside of one in person but that piece you show in the photo of the fly and tumbler doesn't look like the fly in any of my locks. If I ever got a lock with a tumbler that looked like that one I would be asking for a replacement. If you continue to fire the lock using the set triggers without a fly you run the risk of serious damage to the sear and tumbler.
It's quite probable you have some issues with the set triggers however if the lock is not 100% reliable and correct you will never be able to diagnose the trigger problems let alone fix them. One thing at a time, get the lock working correctly every time and then go on to the triggers.
BTW, in your photos of the inside of the lock it looks like your bridle is cracked from the tumbler hole to the outside at about the 1 O'clock position.
Is that a typical L&R tumbler?
I've seen better looking ones in pistols that sold for $30 new.
JonBishop that should tell you that you have a problem with the fly! Now I have never had an L&R lock or even seen the inside of one in person but that piece you show in the photo of the fly and tumbler doesn't look like the fly in any of my locks. If I ever got a lock with a tumbler that looked like that one I would be asking for a replacement. If you continue to fire the lock using the set triggers without a fly you run the risk of serious damage to the sear and tumbler.
It's quite probable you have some issues with the set triggers however if the lock is not 100% reliable and correct you will never be able to diagnose the trigger problems let alone fix them. One thing at a time, get the lock working correctly every time and then go on to the triggers.
BTW, in your photos of the inside of the lock it looks like your bridle is cracked from the tumbler hole to the outside at about the 1 O'clock position.
Is that a typical L&R tumbler?
I've seen better looking ones in pistols that sold for $30 new.
Daryl Crawford
50 Cal.
Today I was reading through old conversations where members here helped me out. @JonBishop you are asking great questions. I've asked some dumb ones and those conversations were patient people helping me to understand. Keep asking, the experience here can help and the qualities of those who help are additionally encouraging.
hawkeye2 has got great advice! You may want to remove the lock, cock it, and fire it holding the lock in your hands. If you feel the “bump” you mentioned as it fires, the fly is not shaped correctly and a portion of it is protruding past the edge of the tumbler while in forward motion. I had a similar problem with with a Pedersoli lock. Making minute adjustments to the leading/following edge of the fly is a tricky business. Too much, or the wrong angle and the fly is ruined. The angle of the fly recess looks too straight and may not allow the fly to work properly. You absolutely need to get the lock working properly or it will cause damage the tumbler and/or the sear and will never work right. I think you said the kit came from TOW?, if so, I’d contact them for a lock replacement or assistance with a new tumbler and fly. This lock should not have this problem if it is sold as an assembled lock. Lock kits are not for the faint hearted. Best of luck
TOW should be able to provide you with the proper replacement tumbler, fly and bridle as it does appear that it is cracked. They usually stock parts for any lock they sell. This would probably be the best place to start. Remove the mainspring, and the sear spring. Cock the lock and release the sear with the lock pointed down. The fly should let the cock (hammer) fall to the “fired” position with NO SNAG or bump as it passes the half-cock position. If you feel a bump or if the cock stalls, your problem is in the fly. Either its geometry is wrong, angle is shaped wrong or the tumbler’s recess for the fly is wrong. A severe bump as the tumbler passes half-cock,while firing, will crack the bridle. All things are fixable!
It would also be worth while to call L&R to get their opinion on the lock.
The correlation between the fly and the set trigger is the function of the fly with the set trigger.
When you use the single front trigger to release the sear, you lift the sear out of the full cock notch and clear of the tumbler with the half cock notch. The tumbler can now rotate to allow the hammer to properly fall.
When you set the trigger, the sear release is driven by the set spring to drive the rear lever up to tap the sear and nudge the sear out of the full cock notch. The sear spring by applying pressure on the sear and keeps the nose of the sear riding along the tumbler as it rotates. What the fly does is lift the nose of the sear over the half cock notch as the tumbler rotates. The L&R tumbler has the two surfaces. One surface catches against the sear to rotate the fly back to allow for the sear to drop into the half cock notch as the tumbler rotates toward the full clock notch. When the sear rides along the tumbler after tapped out of the full cock notch the nose rides the fly forward over the half cock notch and the nose is lifted by the slanted edge of the fly over the half cock notch. No mystery there, just mechanics.
The correlation between the fly and the set trigger is the function of the fly with the set trigger.
When you use the single front trigger to release the sear, you lift the sear out of the full cock notch and clear of the tumbler with the half cock notch. The tumbler can now rotate to allow the hammer to properly fall.
When you set the trigger, the sear release is driven by the set spring to drive the rear lever up to tap the sear and nudge the sear out of the full cock notch. The sear spring by applying pressure on the sear and keeps the nose of the sear riding along the tumbler as it rotates. What the fly does is lift the nose of the sear over the half cock notch as the tumbler rotates. The L&R tumbler has the two surfaces. One surface catches against the sear to rotate the fly back to allow for the sear to drop into the half cock notch as the tumbler rotates toward the full clock notch. When the sear rides along the tumbler after tapped out of the full cock notch the nose rides the fly forward over the half cock notch and the nose is lifted by the slanted edge of the fly over the half cock notch. No mystery there, just mechanics.
Thanks for the replies everyone. The lock seems to function fine outside the stock. Also when in the stock without the trigger group. With the single forward trigger in it doesn’t like to go to full cock. I will continue to troubleshoot. And yes the bridle is cracked. I will contact TOW and send them some pictures. I would hate to have to buy a new lock. Maybe a new trigger that’s not a set trigger? Could that be a viable option?
Jon
Jon
If the lock will go into full cock when it is installed into the stock but it won't hold at full cock with the trigger group installed, the blade on the front trigger (on top) is too high.
File about 1/32" or so off of the top of the blade and then try it.
The blade is the flat area on the front trigger in the picture above.
If the lock will still not go into full cock with the trigger installed, the top of the rear trigger's blade is too high or the spring that powers the rear trigger is preventing the blade from moving down far enough to clear the sear arm in the lock.
File about 1/32" or so off of the top of the blade and then try it.
The blade is the flat area on the front trigger in the picture above.
If the lock will still not go into full cock with the trigger installed, the top of the rear trigger's blade is too high or the spring that powers the rear trigger is preventing the blade from moving down far enough to clear the sear arm in the lock.
I’m going to get back to the trigger stuff. Is the cracked bridle a deal breaker on getting the trigger functioning properly? Also, I haven’t put the rear screw in the trigger plate. I have been using a clamp to hold it down. Was this a serious oversight by not giving this info to you guys? I haven’t contacted TOW yet but I plan to next week. The descriptions provided by everyone is great. Really getting to understand this now.
Thanks, Jon
Thanks, Jon
I had a similar problem on a rifle I did that turned out to be interference in the lock mortise. I have no idea if that is your problem, but I can say for sure you will break the half cock notch off your tumbler if you snap it like too many times.
Well I got the trigger to kind of work. If I set the trigger it will go to half and full cock. Pull the trigger and it works. Try to cock without the trigger set, it will not even try to half or full cock. TOW said to send the lock to them or contact L&R. I’m not sure what to do. I feel real close to figuring this thing out. Some filing and sanding on my part. Also some screw tightness. That seemed to help with the lock out of the stock. I also got a good look at the double set trigger in the stock. I shimmed the back of the trigger spring so it would push down more on the set trigger. It made it fire without snagging in half cock but it made it not cock at all without setting the trigger. Am I on the right track here? Is my cracked bridle a killer?
Thanks, Jon
Thanks, Jon
