Settle a Bet......

[Voyageur]

OK...I pulled this out of a penal code: "

Section 9.12.010 Definition of firearm.

In this chapter, "firearm" means a gun, pistol, rifle, air rifle or air gun, b-b gun, arrow, crossbow, or any other instrument of any kind, character or description which throws or projects a bullet or missile or substance by means of elastic force, air, or explosive substance likely to cause bodily harm."

For the purposes of the BATF black powder firearms are exempted from the 1968 Gun Control Act as far purchasing & shipping...but that has no bearing on whether you can legally possess them as a felon in any particular jurisdiction. A 'firearm', under the law, is not just a 'cartridge gun'. Felons may not possess firearms unless they have been pardoned and executive authoriztion has been given to restore their civil rights as well as their right to possess firearms.

Here is one of the many places you can go to read about how each state views it:
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/GA/80GA/Interim/2003/legup/lu_weap.htm

 

[tg]

I think you will find that the Federal law would permit the possesion by a felon, but some state laws may not, You could probably go to the ATF site and ask for the interpretation from the horses mouth.

 

[Robert58]

You will have to check with your state game warden to find out about your state. But as far as National it should be ok. The new Texas Hunting guide this year says that a convicted felon can hunt with a muzzleloading rifle if it is an antique or replica of an antique rifle made before 1899. Etc not an inline. It goes on to say that a cap and ball, with a removable cylinder, is not a muzzleloader.

Hope this helped,
Robert

 

[ebby53]

Ok....Can anyone out there settle a bet for me?

May a convicted felon possess, use and/or carry either a BP Rifle or a BP Revolver under Federal Law? Taking only those that BATF Forms are not required for purchase. I say yes, because they are not within the "Firearm" Definition. May they be carried concealed? Opinions please.

 

Hello Robert58,
It could be argued about in-line. The Royal Danish Armory has quite a fine selection of some of the most beautiful "In-line" Flintlocks ever made. So I'm wondering that since some of them date from around 1570 if which is definitely before 1899, that maybe for the sake of arguement in-lines could also be exempt. Not that I much favor in-lines, but by Golly if they ever built Flintlock in-lines again, I'd be one of the first ones in-line so to speak.

Take Care

 

[tg]

For the sake of arguement, let's remember that the original "in-line" type guns were more than a modern centerfire re-tooled to eliminate the need for the cartridge, and have name only in common, and I am not sure that 30 years ago that the originals would have been called "in-lines"by definition.

 

[Jay Gardner]

The answer in NO!

Pistol which was a replica of 1859 Remington model black powder percussion pistol, which fell within statutory definition of "antique firearm," but which would expel projectile by explosion and was originally designed to be fired by use of a single hand, was both a "firearm" and a "handgun" under plain language of statute which prohibits receipt, possession or transportation in commerce of any firearm by any person who has been convicted of a felony, notwithstanding Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' interpretation that such statute does not apply to antique firearms, which do not utilize fixed ammunition. 18 U.S.C.A. App.

 

[Voyageur]

Thankyou Doublegun, the gist of my statement was thus:

quote:Originally posted by Voyageur:
For the purposes of the BATF black powder firearms are exempted from the 1968 Gun Control Act as far purchasing & shipping...but that has no bearing on whether you can legally possess them as a felon in any particular jurisdiction. A 'firearm', under the law, is not just a 'cartridge gun'. Felons may not possess firearms unless they have been pardoned and executive authoriztion has been given to restore their civil rights as well as their right to possess firearms.Any felon who cares to test their ability to reinterpret the law, I will watch with interest but I will not be there on 'visiting day'.

 

[Jay Gardner]

Voyager: I saw that but your link was to the Iowa Code. There is also a Fed case out of the Eastern District of MI (Fed Ct) that says that regardless of Executive Pardon, a convicted felon can not own or possess a firearm.

Just want to make sure that readers don't "selectivly" read what has been posted.

 

[ebby53]

Hey Doublegun
I'm the one that posted the start of this.
I understand what you are saying, however, Under the Federal definition of the term "Firearm" are not antiques/replicas etc, specicifly excluded. Therefore, "possession of a "Firearm" buy a convicted felon may not include Possession of an Antique/replic by a convicted felon. Do not all the definitions listed in the statute apply to the entire law. I understand that State Laws may differ.

 

[Jay Gardner]

It is not me that is saying this, it is the Federal District Court in Maryland that made the ruling and that ruling controls. Without getting into a detailed explanation of American jurisprudence I will tell you that one of the courts biggest jobs is actually interprating and applying statutory language. Look at the language from the case: "notwithstanding Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' interpretation that such statute does not apply to antique firearms, which do not utilize fixed ammunition. 18 U.S.C.A. App.

 

[ebby53]

Yeah tg, I'm with you.......Not sure that the Maryland District affects the other districts. I went ahead ahead and read the whole case as doublegun "instructed", not sure it if it only concerns "handguns" or all black power. I also wonder if it concerned "concealed". The info that I read did not indicate the original charge. It did make interesting reading though.

If anyony would like the link to the case (believe me, there are more), let me know.

I plan to check later cases and contact BATF to see what the current "Law" is.

I thank all that have responded for their input.

And the beat goes on.........

 

[RJR]

This is an interesting topic and I think it should be explored further. I have a friend who is a convicted felon from when he was 17, he is now 59. He is interested in shooting muzzleloaders and has been to the range with me onseveral occasions and shot mine, but hesitates to get one of his own because of what we are discussing. I guess he is rightly so to be hesitent as he has been squeaky clean since and knows he doesn't ever want trouble again. I wonder if there is any way he could get that teenaged felony conviction expunged? If any body has any info, please pass it on. Take care, Rick.

 

[Jay Gardner]

First of all, no Fed is going go looking for this unless they really want to OR there are other charges involved, white collar, blue collar or no collar. That District Court opinion IS the state of the law on that point throughout the US. With respect to the applicability of this case to other factual situations the case is pretty clear: "which would expel projectile by explosion and was originally designed to be fired by use of a single hand, was both a "firearm" and a "handgun" under plain language of statute which prohibits receipt, possession or transportation in commerce of any firearm by any person who has been convicted of a felony." As an attorney I will tell you that there is very little ambuguity in that opinion and certainly not enough to jeoparizise one's liberty, even if it is for a short period of time - like 18 months in a Fed Pen.

As I said in my original post, it is not my intent to offer advice, but I will tell you that I would advise any client of mine to not posess any BP rifle/pistol and if they happened to have one I would tell them to get rid of it quickly. This is not one of those things you want to screw around with.

Deaddawg, again don't confuse Fed law with the law in Michigan. Send me a pm when you have a chance.

 

[ebby53]

Well I accept all that has been said.......however, the guy that I bet with said, and I am a witness to the statement, that, when asked to his Federal Probation Officer (and he was Federally convicted) , "What do I have to do to have a BP Gun", the Probation Officer said, " Thats no problem, you may have one now." This was at a point when he had one month left of his Federal probation. The PO said that during probation, any "GUN" was prohibited, but now he could have, not only a BP "Gun" but also a bow, etc. Probation said that any Bow or Gun was prohibited while on probation. But now that it is over, BP Guns (only), as well as a bow was O.K.

This is all in Florida. Our state may be more liberal with respect to BP, but jee wiss, this was a Federal P.O. who said it. I was there!!!

The Federal Charge was definetly a felony.

This guy needs assistance. All he wants is a place to do some target work. The crime was not one of the violent ones. Yeah, yeah, I know, all stuff leads to Rome, but right is right. And it all leads to Federal/State Gun control and all that means.
Again, if anyone wants the link to the case law let me know

 

[Robert58]

The key word is PROBATION. I don't think someone that has done there probation, and has been released, is considered a convicted felon. To be considered a convicted felon, you have to have been to prison.

Robert

 

[ebby53]

Yeah, you may be right..........This guy spent time at Camp Fed for his problem (Minimum Security, non the less, prison).....by the by, the two others that have responded a while back are from Michigan...can't even have BP mailed there from the likes of Dixie Gun works or any other place like that. Like NJ, NY, etc.,I guess Michigan is some what more restrictive?!?

 

[tg]

It is possible to have a felony conviction expunged, and at one time there was a thing called "relief of disabilities for use of firearms" that could be granted by the BATF for felons which would grant them the right to own rifles and shotguns but no handguns, it was a federal recognized status but most local jurisdictions accepted it.I do not think this program is still offered. if a felon wants to use a ML gun I would suggest some detailed local and federal research and get something from someone in writing that "OK's" it.

 

[ebby53]

tg.........yeah, I think I'll check into it........Stay tuned and I'll pass on what I find out, See ya

 

[roundball]

Clarification on law...disposition and sentencing are two separate activities.
The determining factor of whether someone has been convicted of something has nothing to do with whether that person has gone to prison.

You go through the judicial process and a disposition is reached for the offense, ie:
dismissed, innocent, acquitted, guilty, etc;
If in the case of a felony, if you are convicted of a felony, then you are a 'convicted felon'.

Then the sentencing phase occurs and whether or not the person then goes to prison, or on probation, or whatever, the person is still in a 'convicted felon' category, unless overturned on appeal and permanently expunged.