Sharps carbine loading question

[wb78963]

Hello out there,
Has anyone tried American Pioneer Powder in any of its forms in a Sharps carbine using a paper cartridge ?
I am trying to use it because it makes it easy using as cast un-lubricated bullets and the great ease of cleaning..
Any information will be appreciated.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

 

[wb78963]

So far after only about 14 shots to test I am very pleased with the APP and a 420 (?) grain bullet combination. The bullet is cast in a mould from Accurate Molds in Utah and is pure lead..
Accuracy looks good but the best part is APP by any name is so easy to clean. The fouling is consecutive not cumulative so the bore is more or less one shot dirty and no lube is needed. I have been shooting as cast bullets in my Sharps and also in an 1860 Army with no lubricant and no leading.
I am not giving up on real honest to goodness black Gunpowder, but APP is fun to play with and at $10.50 a pound how can I go wrong?
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

 

[Sam squanch]

If it works for you go for it!

 

[Erwan]

So far after only about 14 shots to test I am very pleased with the APP and a 420 (?) grain bullet combination. The bullet is cast in a mould from Accurate Molds in Utah and is pure lead..
Accuracy looks good but the best part is APP by any name is so easy to clean. The fouling is consecutive not cumulative so the bore is more or less one shot dirty and no lube is needed. I have been shooting as cast bullets in my Sharps and also in an 1860 Army with no lubricant and no leading.
I am not giving up on real honest to goodness black Gunpowder, but APP is fun to play with and at $10.50 a pound how can I go wrong?
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

Can you tell what is the quality of the ignition with Sharps paper cartridges, is it (the APP) sensitive enough for a correct ignition ?...

 

[wb78963]

Can you tell what is the quality of the ignition with Sharps paper cartridges, is it (the APP) sensitive enough for a correct ignition ?...

It would appear so. The only FTF I have had is bcause of some ancient RWS caps that just do not pop.
I am using home rolled non nitrated paper tubes with a curling paper flat base. The tube length with this bullet puts the base paper right at the breech block. Surprisingly so far two or three successful ignitions with CCI General purpose caps have been noted.
The powder is held against the base paper with filler right to the bullet base.
The lovely part of using APP powders is no lube is needed. The fouling acts as a lube.
As I learn more I will post successes and failures.
This is a learning curve for me because usually the cartridge is a Hahn machine Works tube and a
Moose Mould ring tail bullet. with real Gunpowder FFg or FFFg depending on the can I grab.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

 

[Erwan]

Thanks for the answer.
I can't get that kind of powder, but, for me, this is interesting to know how it works with this propellant that is not a real BP...
I use only musket caps with four vanes RWS and it works well with thin tissue paper for the bottom.
The cartridges are either linen or nitrated wrapping paper and most often nitrated linen. The powder is Swiss No. 2 (FFFg), it is regular and precise at 50 and 100 meters with 55 or 60 grains .
Note: I have to grease the bullets before shooting and pass a light dry patch between two shots to keep a perfect accuracy...
You can see How I do here : IAB Sharps Gardone

 

[sportster73hp]

Thanks for the answer.
I can't get that kind of powder, but, for me, this is interesting to know how it works with this propellant that is not a real BP...
I use only musket caps with four vanes RWS and it works well with thin tissue paper for the bottom.
The cartridges are either linen or nitrated wrapping paper and most often nitrated linen. The powder is Swiss No. 2 (FFFg), it is regular and precise at 50 and 100 meters with 55 or 60 grains .
Note: I have to grease the bullets before shooting and pass a light dry patch between two shots to keep a perfect accuracy...
You can see How I do here : IAB Sharps Gardone

What weight linen are you using? I have some on order for clothing.

 

[wb78963]

I intend to use nitrated paper to make a flat base cartridge. Search for Duelist 1954 I use the method Mike uses for paper cartridges with a very thin paper base.It is best to make the tube a length that the base is touching the breech face is not cut by it.
For linen I have no idea and can't help you there but search the web..
. Right now my paper is cut from a grocery sack and is pretty strong, but usually there is a bit left in the chamber.
The length measurement Musket Matters gives a very clear explanation and you can use his method in metric just as easily.
isn't it fun reinventing a 162 year old wheel.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

 

[Erwan]

What weight linen are you using? I have some on order for clothing.

I don't have the weight of the linen (pure flax), but I have two kinds of it. For the first and the thickest, the caliper said 0.013" and 0.007" for the other. I mostly use the 0.013", nitrated with pure KNO³ and lightly coated with collodion (from the chemist's shop and solved almost like water) or very fine shellac (almost only alcohol in fact) after finishing the cartridge and before greasing: this tightens the mesh of the fabric with the collodion and closes the mesh stiffening the cartridge while avoiding the pollution of the powder by the grease and avoiding also the dust of powder to pass by the mesh...
Thickness:

Spoiler

 

[Erwan]

isn't it fun reinventing a 162 year old wheel.

This is the greatest part of this pleasure, I can't imagine me going to the shop and buy a box of cartridges of 45-70-500 for a new type of Sharps Sporting carbine...

 

[wb78963]

I don't have the weight of the linen (pure flax), but I have two kinds of it. For the first and the thickest, the caliper said 0.013" and 0.007" for the other. I mostly use the 0.013", nitrated with pure KNO³ and lightly coated with collodion (from the chemist's shop and solved almost like water) or very fine shellac (almost only alcohol in fact) after finishing the cartridge and before greasing: this tightens the mesh of the fabric with the collodion and closes the mesh stiffening the cartridge while avoiding the pollution of the powder by the grease and avoiding also the dust of powder to pass by the mesh...
Thickness:

Spoiler

View attachment 86204

good grief and gray train

I don't have the weight of the linen (pure flax), but I have two kinds of it. For the first and the thickest, the caliper said 0.013" and 0.007" for the other. I mostly use the 0.013", nitrated with pure KNO³ and lightly coated with collodion (from the chemist's shop and solved almost like water) or very fine shellac (almost only alcohol in fact) after finishing the cartridge and before greasing: this tightens the mesh of the fabric with the collodion and closes the mesh stiffening the cartridge while avoiding the pollution of the powder by the grease and avoiding also the dust of powder to pass by the mesh...
Thickness:

Spoiler

View attachment 86204

Good grief! and I thought home rolling paper tubes was a tedious project, but this takes the all time cake.

Fifteen more rounds went down range this afternoon using Black MZ with no ignition problems except for a couple of cap failures with some ancient RWS caps. The new RWS Caps gave 100% ignition.
My guess is the gun has fired almost 50 rounds and still is easy to open courtesy of the Hahn Machine Works improvement.
Good luck on your project I admire your perseverance.
Bunk.

 

[Erwan]

reinventing a 162 year old wheel.

I'm just trying to do something like that : MINT, ORIGINAL SHARPS .52 CAL COMBUSTIBLE LINEN CARTRIDGE — Horse Soldier , something a bit close of the real original Sharps linen cartridges...

At 100 yards it works correctly, not perfect but correctly.......

Spoiler

 

[wb78963]

I'm just trying to do something like that : MINT, ORIGINAL SHARPS .52 CAL COMBUSTIBLE LINEN CARTRIDGE — Horse Soldier , something a bit close of the real original Sharps linen cartridges...

At 100 yards it works correctly, not perfect but correctly.......

Spoiler

View attachment 86299

Mark Hubbs at Eras Gone Bullet Moulds has a good video on making the paper cartridge with a folded paper tail. You may get some clues on how to do the linen cartridge.
Good luck, and very very good shooting
You Held Center!
Bunk

 

[wb78963]

good grief and gray train

Good grief! and I thought home rolling paper tubes was a tedious project, but this takes the all time cake.

Fifteen more rounds went down range this afternoon using Black MZ with no ignition problems except for a couple of cap failures with some ancient RWS caps. The new RWS Caps gave 100% ignition.
My guess is the gun has fired almost 50 rounds and still is easy to open courtesy of the Hahn Machine Works improvement.
Good luck on your project I admire your perseverance.
Bunk.

I must have been doing something right, but I do not know what. Suddenly my APP cartridges are notional about going off. Sometimes it gives a bang sometimes I get a not bang. Priming the nipple with FFFFg cures the problem, but going back to real Gunpowder solved the ignition problem completely.
I will continue to use APP in my revolvers and in those unmentionable brass thingies, but the Sharps gets Gunpowder exclusively and that goes bang every time.
But the experimenting was fun.
Respectfully
Bunk

 

[Badgerfarm]

It sounds like the flash channel is dirty and causing misfires assuming that the APP worked well before and then developed the problem. Sharps have a very long flash channel and it doesn't take much fouling to upset the ignition process. Pipe cleaners and windex plus hot soapy water will dissolve about any fouling and the pipe cleaners reach around the flash channel really well. The other culprit could be a worn nipple. If the flash hole looks very large a nipple replacement is in order.

 

[wb78963]

After all the good success with BMZ I cleaned the rifle completely including cleaning the breech block.
My assumption was that the careful cleaning knocked all the fouling from the corners of the firepath that helped direct the cap flash around those sharp corners. BMZ is a little harder to ignite than Gunpowder so instead of fighting the problem I just put the BMZ jar back in the locker and got out the 1.5Fg and FFg Swiss and Graf respectively and am going on my merry, good smelling smoke way.
The nipple is a stainless TOW and has less that a hundred rounds through it.
I use very light loads not over 50 grains either FFg or 1.5Fg so pressures are mild and so is recoil.
Thanks anyway for the suggestions This forum is where information and ideas get passed around.
It was an interesting experiment anyway.
Respectfully
Bunk

 

[Badgerfarm]

Darn, I was hoping that the BMZ would work consistently in the Sharps. I really like it as a substitute powder because the cleanup is so easy. It's too bad they quit shipping the Black MZ since I don't live close to source.

 

[wb78963]

Hello Badgerfarm,
I had good success with BMZ by using a nipple primer for a little extra heat.
Perhaps if I would open the flash hole to allow more flame to reach the cartridge base that might work.
But there is a good supply of FFg Gunpowdwe on hand so there is no motivation to fudge up a musket nipple that well may be made of unobtainium so I will horde my meager supply of nipples and not experiment..
I have no ignition problems with my hand guns and it is a lot easier to clean.
BTW the BMZ ignition was instant with nipple primed one stroke and CCI re-inactor caps which are really puny.
Ignition was sporadic with RWS caps and better that CCI with out the extra oomph.
For what it is worth
Hold Center
Hit that rascal!
Whoopee!
Bunk

 

[wb78963]

Darn, I was hoping that the BMZ would work consistently in the Sharps. I really like it as a substitute powder because the cleanup is so easy. It's too bad they quit shipping the Black MZ since I don't live close to source.

Black MZ, Jim Shokey's Gold, American Pioneer, and that "new" sulfur less powder from Shooters World are all the same thing.

 

[LeadShark]

Nitrating the paper is not needed. I have never nitrated my cartridges.

Always use the strongest caps you can get. I use 6-winged caps. Reliable and fast ignition. Sometimes, the flash hole needs to be opened up just so little.