Sharps O Ring Breech Mod

[manbat]

I've read much about the O ring mod for Sharps rifles and how it reduces fowling, increases accuracy, is needed on all replica Sharps rifles due to a design that allows the use of the brass case in lieu of a paper cartridge, and eliminates what Mike Beliveau calls the "sheet of flame" that shoots up at the breech and turns his face, shirt, and hat were "completely black" from the soot.



I own and shoot unmentionable model Sharps, but have not yet pulled the trigger on an earlier model. It's a definite hole in the collection. But I'm not a big fan of modern modifications to what are intended to be replica arms, and I'm not really interested in firearms that require modifications to be shootable.

For those that shoot unmodified 1859s or similar, is the breech gas blow as bad as Mike B. describes, or is the "sheet of flame" something that those of us who shoot flintlocks are already used to?

 

[Stantheman86]

I think in the original period, users of the Sharps paper cartridge rifles just dealt with the breech "leaking " . It was still the early days of Breechloaders and it beat ramming Minie balls down the pipe

I had a Pedersoli 1854 Infantry Sharps years ago but I sold it, it just seemed like getting a 45-70 made more sense.

 

[2 shots]

get a shilo if you can or if you cant get the mod done for safety. i have an original model 1859 with the '' sharps forearm'' each time you sheared a cartridge a little power slipped down the breech and into the forearm. if you did not clean it out occasionally when the hot gas leaked past the breech block it would ignite that powder and blow the forearm apart, not good for the hand and wrist either.



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[dave951]

Yes, the sheet of fire can happen in an early Sharps. Yes, unmodified Sharps can collect powder in the forearm area leading to a soiling of the operator's under garments. Are they shootable? Yes, but know what you signed on for.

 

[skwerleater]

I have used two. One was a carbine that was very leaky (IAB). It would shoot a flame down on your forearm that would scorch your shirt. I had the o-ring mod done to it and it worked great after that. The other was a Pedersoli, not modified. It did emit some gas at the breech, but it was like new and leaked much less than the IAB. But it did not function well, after a couple shots the breech would seize up.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Here’s an unmodified Shiloh 1863 Sharps firing a full load, judge for yourself how much leak there is. I didn’t get burnt. And to get powder under the forearm requires opening the breech after you have loaded and not fired the rifle. That is with the Shilohs, I have little experience with the other makes.
D953B14C-2B07-4B6E-A13F-C7B723BA8FF1 by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

 

[Bad Karma]

Here’s an unmodified Shiloh 1863 Sharps firing a full load, judge for yourself how much leak there is. I didn’t get burnt. And to get powder under the forearm requires opening the breech after you have loaded and not fired the rifle. That is with the Shilohs, I have little experience with the other makes.
D953B14C-2B07-4B6E-A13F-C7B723BA8FF1 by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

You look better in this pic than in your avatar! What’s your secret? Botox? A little tuck here and there?

 

[Phil Coffins]

A steady diet of red meat and whiskey.

 

[dave951]

I shot both my IABs unmodified for a bit before sending them off for the O ring mod. Both leaked a bit and both started to bind a bit after 10 or so shots. Since I shoot competition and the mod is legal, off they went and I am extremely happy with the result. That said, I've seen a Shiloh repop shot in the same competition I'm in and it was unmodified. The owner had no issues with his but he was shooting slowly and only fired about 10 rounds.

 

[mhb]

As originally made and fitted, the Sharps percussion models, including the slant breech, did not suffer from the severe gas leaking problem when new and unworn. The Italian reproductions are not as well made and fitted as the Sharps rifles were, and do often leak badly even when new. My friend Bill Mapoles has made a study of the issue using original Sharps arms of most models, and published at least one article on the results in 'Black Powder Cartridge News'. I've observed his shooting of these arms (and shot some of them), and can testify that the originals do not leak significantly when in new and unworn/undamaged condition. In addition, the accuracy Bill obtained in these tests is truly impressive. I recommend anyone interested in this subject find and read Bill's article.

mhb - MIke

 

[manbat]

Thanks for the great perspectives from all. Shilohs are lovely, but tough to justify the cost of a Shiloh for a limited shooter, and a replica that requires additional cost to modify to work right kind of defeats the purpose.

Looks like I'm better off looking to fill other gaps in the collection and sticking with my unmentionable Sharps models.

 

[Bad Karma]

That’s always worked for me too, just never seen it reverse aging before. Guess I’m gonna fry up a tenderloin for dessert!

 

[mhb]

For anyone interested in the performance of the original Sharps rifles and carbines, I recommend reading the full range of accuracy testing articles by Bill Mapoles. published in Black Powder Cartridge News - issues 108, 109 and 111, on the slant breech models; and 111 and 116 on the New Models - back issues are available from the publisher. Also, all of the articles have been re-printed in the Sharps Collectors magazine. I think you'll be surprised by the results obtained.

mhb - MIke

 

[Bunk]

For anyone interested in the performance of the original Sharps rifles and carbines, I recommend reading the full range of accuracy testing articles by Bill Mapoles. published in Black Powder Cartridge News - issues 108, 109 and 111, on the slant breech models; and 111 and 116 on the New Models - back issues are available from the publisher. Also, all of the articles have been re-printed in the Sharps Collectors magazine. I think you'll be surprised by the results obtained.

mhb - MIke

It is my good fortune (?) to have two Pedersoli Sharps. both have had the breech block conversions.
One is a carbine with the Hahn Machine Works conversion which uses an "O" ring to force a sealing steel ring against the breech block face.
The other is Sporting Rifle with the Larry Flees conversion which uses an "O" ring behind a new fitted breech block face pressed against the barrel breech face. In both cases the sliding chamber sleeve is replaced with a permanently swaged in place chamber sleeve.
Both are set up at my request to use the Charlie's 1.25" tubes and Moose 457 grain ring tail bullet.
I like both and wold not put one over the other.
The Hahn conversion will allow using a cut tail cartridge. The Flees conversion uses a flat base cartridge only.
I like both of them they are easy to remove and replace. To test reliability I tried to do a "burn down" to see how long it would take to have breech block stoppage. However after 45 rounds each using 45 or 50 grains FFg GOEX and the Moose ring tail bullet both were still opening and closing easily.
I stopped at that point because at 14 bullets per pound of lead it was getting expensive and my shoulder was tired.
Which one is better? I would not say one over the other. the Hahn is about five minutes quicker to clean, because of fewer parts but is slightly trickier to reassemble.
The Fees is just as easy to clean but with more parts it takes a couple of minutes more to reassemble.
Duelist 1954 has a couple of videos on his Sharps infantry rifle with the Flees conversion.
search "Hahn Conversion" for pictures
Respectfully submitted
Bunk




U

 

[Boston Bill]

I have an 1863 band rifle in 45 cal and an 1863 carbine in 50 cal. Both are Shiloh Sharps.
No sheets of flame. No blow by. Taking of the fore end wood there is a little fouling at the lower end area. Very little.
Both are fun shooters. I just put in a bullet, some cornmeal for filler then the powder and let her rip.
I use bore butter on the gas plate and block and it is easy to remove to clean.

 

[Boston Bill]

Thanks for the great perspectives from all. Shilohs are lovely, but tough to justify the cost of a Shiloh for a limited shooter, and a replica that requires additional cost to modify to work right kind of defeats the purpose.

Looks like I'm better off looking to fill other gaps in the collection and sticking with my unmentionable Sharps models.

See post #15. I don't have either of mine altered.

 

[Boston Bill]

As originally made and fitted, the Sharps percussion models, including the slant breech, did not suffer from the severe gas leaking problem when new and unworn. The Italian reproductions are not as well made and fitted as the Sharps rifles were, and do often leak badly even when new. My friend Bill Mapoles has made a study of the issue using original Sharps arms of most models, and published at least one article on the results in 'Black Powder Cartridge News'. I've observed his shooting of these arms (and shot some of them), and can testify that the originals do not leak significantly when in new and unworn/undamaged condition. In addition, the accuracy Bill obtained in these tests is truly impressive. I recommend anyone interested in this subject find and read Bill's article.

mhb - MIke

I had an Italian 54 cal carbine back in 1979. Bought in Woolworth or somewhere in Denver.
That was a fine shooting carbine. Pushed a bullet into the chamber, filled the chamber with powder to the top and that sucker hit the 100 yard plate every time! That was an awesome carbine for sure. And had absolutely no leakage/blowby.
Every time I think of that carbine I regret selling it!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I shot both my IABs unmodified for a bit before sending them off for the O ring mod. Both leaked a bit and both started to bind a bit after 10 or so shots.

My UNmodified IAB Sharps won’t close on 0.002” shim stock in the breech, yet it will lock up after 2 or 3 shots, requiring complete disassembly …

 

[Bad Karma]

I had an Italian 54 cal carbine back in 1979. Bought in Woolworth or somewhere in Denver.
That was a fine shooting carbine. Pushed a bullet into the chamber, filled the chamber with powder to the top and that sucker hit the 100 yard plate every time! That was an awesome carbine for sure. And had absolutely no leakage/blowby.
Every time I think of that carbine I regret selling it!

I had one about the same time frame maybe 1974 or so? Mine was imported by SILE. I dont remember who made it but it shot pretty well. At the time I had still had a few mouths to feed so I used a .308 or .257 as my primary elk, antelope, and deer guns and Colorado didn’t allow it in muzzleloader seasons so I traded it for something more useful there. Should have held on to it… I’d never heard of any binding problems but I didn’t know many people who cared about the ancient technologies except my grandfather and he’d been gone for years. I don’t recall any while I was shooting it.

 

[Mrdix]

Can some one post some pictures this modification for us folks that are not experts ?