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shifting loads in a double

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George

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I see discussions about shot loads in a double shifting in the unfired barrel, and the impression is that this would cause a dangerous situation. I don't think that's the case. With a standard shot column of powder, overpowder card wad, cushion wad (or not), shot and overshot card, the space between the overpowder wad/wads and the overshot wad is completely filled with shot. Think about what would happen to such a shot column under the effects of recoil. Things at rest want to stay at rest, so as the gun moves backward, the shot column wants to move forward. Physics tells us the heaviest parts of the column will resist moving backward the most, so the shot is the part which wants to stay where it is, in effect moving up the bore. The powder and the overpowder wad/wads, if properly snug, are not at all likely to move, too light weight, so not enough inertia, and tight in the bore if properly fitted, so too much friction to move. The overshot card won't have enough weight to move on its own, but it might if its friction is too little to resist the force of the shot trying to shift forward.

Friction of the wads against the barrel is usually high enough to prevent anything moving. If it isn't, think what will happen. The powder and overpowder wads stay in place, the shot moves a bit up the bore pushing the overshot card in front of it, then stops. Now the space between the overpowder and overshot cards is larger than required to contain the shot, so, with the barrel horizontal, the shot settles to the bottom of the bore, leaving a space above it. If you now fire that barrel, the overpowder wads moving forward won't hit a solid block of shot, but loose shot settled to the bottom. The expanding gas will escape over and/or through the shot, push the overshot card aside and escape harmlessly up the bore. It won't be like a solid obstruction with space between it and the powder, a situation which we know is dangerous. That might happen if you were loaded with ball, but it won't if you are loaded with shot.

I've been aware of having a load shift only once in all the years I've been shooting double shotguns, and I fired it without knowing it had happened. It was a really weird sensation. There was zero recoil from a fairly heavy charge of powder, and the sound was hollow, sort of a whoosh and an echo at the same time, hardly a real bang, at all. I knew immediately what had happened, just from the way it reacted.

In his book, "The Art of Shooting Flying", 1767, Thomas Page discusses this. He was using folded brown paper for wads, not cards as we do. I've tried his method, and the wads were not at all tight.

"After some experience you will find, if your gun is clean, and the wad thrust but lightly down, that in walking the shot will be apt to get loose: and if you discharge the piece in that state, it will seem, by the small resistance it makes as if there were no shot in it:"

Spence
 
I also use a ML double for the majority of my bird shooting. I've never had it happen in a ML, but as a precaution I developed the habit of dropping the RR down the still loaded barrel when reloading the fired one. Dropping the RR down should snug up the load when it impacts.

I did have the card move once and the shot drop out on one of my old breech loaders that I was using brass shells in. IIRC I was using 2 OS cards in the shells. But this happened after maybe a dozen shots out of the other barrel. I also probably didn't glue the cards in completely when loading the shells.
 
Supercracker said:
I also use a ML double for the majority of my bird shooting. I've never had it happen in a ML, but as a precaution I developed the habit of dropping the RR down the still loaded barrel when reloading the fired one. Dropping the RR down should snug up the load when it impacts.

I did have the card move once and the shot drop out on one of my old breech loaders that I was using brass shells in. IIRC I was using 2 OS cards in the shells. But this happened after maybe a dozen shots out of the other barrel. I also probably didn't glue the cards in completely when loading the shells.

We're reading off the same page. In going on 30 years of ML shotgunning with doubles, I've never had a load shift. And I checked by using the ramrod as you describe.

One bud had trouble with shot getting loose due to slightly undersize over-shot cards (he was making his own from cereal boxes). Easy expedient in the field was to use two OS cards. Long term solution was to make a new punch sized to his barrels.
 
I'm not sure I follow all your reasoning. My experience with the only ml SxS shotgun I have ever owned is the opposite. The load shifted (dangerously IMHO) on every shot.
But, repeat BUT, the bores were choked and not jugged. It was a Ped. version from Richland Arms. Supposedly 12 ga. but would accept only 14 ga. wads and cards. To use larger required a big mallet and they would cut to get past the choke. I know about the twisting, bending and cussing technique to load larger wads. Wouldn't do it, too much hassle. So the wads that would fit past the choke were smaller than the bore. They always shifted on firing. So, yer reasoning might be correct but should not be applied to all SxS shotguns with a broad brush. Care and individual technique must be used with every gun. Doubles? I don't like 'em.
 
I used to have a 12 ga. double barreled caplock shotgun that I used to hunt squirrels for many years and never had a problem with the load in the unfired barrel moving under the recoil of the other barrel. I used snug fitting wads and cards and the load stayed in place until fired. Absolutely no problem. If anyone has had a problem with the load on the unfired barrel moving under the recoil of the firing of the other barrel, the simple solution is to use a larger size wad and card. The safest way to know if your load in your unfired barrel moves is to fire one barrel and then use your ramrod to see if the load in your unfired barrel has moved. Be sure to press hard to see if you get any movement. If you do, just seat your load and fire it out, then get some larger wads and cards before you load both barrels. In the meantime, just load one barrel and leave the other empty until you can get the proper size wads and cards.
 
When I first started shooting a muzzle loading SxS I did have loads in the second barrel come loose occasionally. This was especvially true in the field training bird dogs where I reloaded after firing one barrel (which has its own challenges), sometimes two or three times. I started putting a second overshot card in the second barrel, and the problem just stopped.

Since then, I have gone to tighter overshot cards and it hasn't happened since. I have had no problem with cylinder bores or bores with a modified choke (fixed). I can certainly imagine that the Pedersoli Trap Specials, with quite a lot of choke could present a problem in this way. Don't get me started on the joys of screw in chokes.
 
I have an 11 bore SXS. At least that is how it is marked on the barrels. I started shooting 11 gauge wads from TOTW and found loads a little loose. I measured the bores and found them to be a full 10 guage. I ordered 10 guage wads and found them to be a tight fit and haven't had any problems or movement since. You need a tight OS card or use two.



Two Shot
 
I have screw-in chokes on my 10 ga, and I have to turn the wads sideways and press them through the choke tubes that way. However; they easily flip flat with the ramrod, and go down tight. I've fired the right barrel several times with a heavy load, and never had the load in the left barrel shift.
 
I once owned a very fine Pedersoli 12ga dbl and never had a hint of any load shifting. It was cylinder bore and I used standard 12ga materials.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
My experience with the only ml SxS shotgun I have ever owned is the opposite. The load shifted (dangerously IMHO) on every shot.
And you are surprised at that? You are using 14 gauge wads in a 12 gauge shotgun and a shifting load is almost guaranteed. You seem to understand that but refuse to do what you know is needed to prevent the problem, too much hassle? But you have no doubt it is dangerous? Based on what?

Such reasoning makes it hard to have a useful conversation.

So, yer reasoning might be correct but should not be applied to all SxS shotguns with a broad brush.
I disagree. The principle is good across the board, and I have no doubt all the scaremongering I've heard over the last 35 years about shifting shot loads in a double being dangerous is bad info.

All it will take to prove me wrong in my reasoning is one... just one... unquestioned example of a BP double gun blowing up because of a shifting shot load.

Spence
 
Years back when I got my double Pedersoli I was told the other barrel load would move. I fired over 100 rounds out of one barrel in a weekend to check and the other barrel load never moved.I would check after 25 rounds fired. Also tried this shooting clays with just one barrel ( this time the other one and found it never moved either. I checked this one after 50 rounds fired. Guess my wads are tight enough. I have hunted a lot of years with this weapon.
 
George said:
Rifleman1776 said:
My experience with the only ml SxS shotgun I have ever owned is the opposite. The load shifted (dangerously IMHO) on every shot.
And you are surprised at that? You are using 14 gauge wads in a 12 gauge shotgun and a shifting load is almost guaranteed. You seem to understand that but refuse to do what you know is needed to prevent the problem, too much hassle? But you have no doubt it is dangerous? Based on what?

Such reasoning makes it hard to have a useful conversation.

So, yer reasoning might be correct but should not be applied to all SxS shotguns with a broad brush.
I disagree. The principle is good across the board, and I have no doubt all the scaremongering I've heard over the last 35 years about shifting shot loads in a double being dangerous is bad info.

All it will take to prove me wrong in my reasoning is one... just one... unquestioned example of a BP double gun blowing up because of a shifting shot load.

Spence

Spence, you put that so much better than I ever could.

All I could think of was to bang my head on a brick wall 'till it bled :thumbsup:

B.
 
You are using 14 gauge wads in a 12 gauge shotgun and a shifting load is almost guaranteed. You seem to understand that but refuse to do what you know is needed to prevent the problem, too much hassle? But you have no doubt it is dangerous? Based on what?

Such reasoning makes it hard to have a useful conversation.
The only thing I refused to do was engage in dangerous practices. It was a 14 ga. simply marketed as 12. I eventually had the right barrel honed out to cylinder bore. It measured, and was a 14 ga. With 14 ga. wads it loaded just fine. The left barrel always shifted when I shot. And, the right barrel shifted when I shot the left.
In my experience, a double ml shotgun is inherently a dangerous device. Others milage may vary. And, I am aware that boatloads of double ml shotguns have been imported into the U.S. from Europe over the last couple hundred years.
 
Loads will not shift in the barrels if properly fit components are used. When using firearms, there is always a chance of mishap. I have seen barrels in modern shotguns where a blooper load that did not expel the cushion/wad from the 1st shot. That creates a huge spike in pressures also, when the 2nd shot is fired. But, if the components fit the gun as they should, there will be no problems. All of my shotgun hunting for the past many years has been with muzzleloading SxS's. Never a problem, but I have also checked and made sure the components fit! Just as you should check that your rifle has it's load snug up against the powder.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
You are using 14 gauge wads in a 12 gauge shotgun and a shifting load is almost guaranteed. You seem to understand that but refuse to do what you know is needed to prevent the problem, too much hassle? But you have no doubt it is dangerous? Based on what?

Such reasoning makes it hard to have a useful conversation.


The only thing I refused to do was engage in dangerous practices. It was a 14 ga. simply marketed as 12. I eventually had the right barrel honed out to cylinder bore. It measured, and was a 14 ga. With 14 ga. wads it loaded just fine. The left barrel always shifted when I shot. And, the right barrel shifted when I shot the left.
In my experience, a double ml shotgun is inherently a dangerous device. Others milage may vary. And, I am aware that boatloads of double ml shotguns have been imported into the U.S. from Europe over the last couple hundred years.
You needed 13g wads then brother. :doh:

When you place a small item in your car trunk and it slams around during a car jouney, do you repeat the same mistake the next day?

B :wink:
 
Exactly the same process as everyone has to use with rifles. It might say "54 caliber" on the barrel, but that doesn't tell you whether you need to use .520, .525, .530 or .535 balls. And I know "54 caliber" rifles that require those. Heck, my various 58 calibers need balls ranging anywhere from .562 to .575, yet they all say "58 caliber" right there on the barrel.

Same operator requirements for shotguns.
 
It may be true that the chances of the charge moving in the unfired barrel are slim with good bore gauge wads; we have to allow for those who prefer the more traditional loadings with wasp nests, grass, newspaper etc. for wadding.

Also there many an old doubles that are "washed out" in the breach section.

A warning to be careful for such an event is not out of place.
 
Grandpa Ron said:
It may be true that the chances of the charge moving in the unfired barrel are slim with good bore gauge wads; we have to allow for those who prefer the more traditional loadings with wasp nests, grass, newspaper etc. for wadding.

Also there many an old doubles that are "washed out" in the breach section.

A warning to be careful for such an event is not out of place.
That reminds me of the time I had a rusty pitted Beretta. It was such a job to get a wad to go down I knew was never going to budge on the unfired barrel and never did.

I have used newspaper on close in decoyed pigeon.
Not one load shifted on the unfired barrel for several birds. I regularly shoot over decoys and get the birds in close so switch to newspaper for economy a few times a year.

B.
 
Hmm, maybe the gun has some issues. Is the breech area of the bore loose? Has corrosion enlarged the breech area? I have had old rifles and an old shotgun that you could feel the load let loose when it got to the breech area. On the rifle, I just added another patch in the bore first, to kind of be a filler to get the load to set a little further up the bore. I did the same thing with multiple cards on the shotgun. I don't know for absolutely certainty, but placing the load a little higher in the bore, gets you into and area of the bore/breech that is not wore or corroded larger than the rest of the barrel. So using the cards to fill that area and get a good snug fit, has worked for me. Anyhow, since I do play so much with shotguns, I do have components of every imaginable size from 10ga. up to 24ga. There has always been one size that gives me a good fit, regardless what the barrel measures. Though I am sure wasp nesting and other original type of materials work very good, I shoot shotguns way too much to keep me in wasp nesting material. If you haven't checked yet. Contact Mike at "Mike's Quality Black Powder Wads". He has every size imaginable and in between. 317-933-3441
 
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