shifting loads in a double

[Dphar]

I'm not sure I follow all your reasoning. My experience with the only ml SxS shotgun I have ever owned is the opposite. The load shifted (dangerously IMHO) on every shot.
But, repeat BUT, the bores were choked and not jugged. It was a Ped. version from Richland Arms. Supposedly 12 ga. but would accept only 14 ga. wads and cards. To use larger required a big mallet and they would cut to get past the choke. I know about the twisting, bending and cussing technique to load larger wads. Wouldn't do it, too much hassle. So the wads that would fit past the choke were smaller than the bore. They always shifted on firing. So, yer reasoning might be correct but should not be applied to all SxS shotguns with a broad brush. Care and individual technique must be used with every gun. Doubles? I don't like 'em.

With a cylinder bore and tight wads I don't think there is serious problem, but chokes?
Does it not occur to anyone that few ML shotguns were choked even though choke boring was patented by an American circa 1835-40?
In firearms and many other things people seem to want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
In grey powder cartridge guns for example its been known for a very long time, pre-WW-II, that loading too light is extremely dangerous. But lots of guns are blown up by loading too light.
Choke bored MLs, doubles anyway, can be dangerous. But people want breech loader performance in MLS. Jug choking is not so bad but a conventional choke that is very tight will result in wads being loose in the breech.

Dan

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Clearly, the chokes are a problem. The thin overshot cards in a slightly larger gauge can usually be pressed through the chokes when turned sideways. (But I haven't tried it in your gun, so I don't know.)

 

[Wayne/Al]

I have been shooting a 12 Ga SXS pedersoli for a while now and I really like the old girl. I went through a lot of powder and found if you just try you can find solutions. The left barrel is choked and I had problems getting the wads through the muzzle.I tried some leather wads that I made and that solved that problem. since then I made some felt wads and they work fine on the choked barell. Both are flexible enough to go through the muzzle but get straight as they are rammed into place. I make my wads with a punch mounted in a drill press. The punch is ".750 .

BTW Never had a load to shift . I check when I think about it but never found one loose.

If I could only keep one muzzleloader it would be my 12 Ga SXS.

Wayne/AL

 

[Flintfan69]

Back to the original poster's question. Yes, the correct way to prevent the second barrel's load from shifting is to use one size larger over shot wad. I've found this to be a somewhat better choice than using two overshot cards. Using one overshot card seems to help with patterns, as opposed to using two, which I've found can lead to unevenness in your pattern.

Try both methods on a patterning board, and see how they work for you. Good luck.

 

[George]

Well, this has been exciting and fun, as usual, but I apparently failed to make my point. As usual.

I didn't ask a question, I just expressed the opinion that even if a load of shot shifted in the bore it wouldn't be dangerous. We have ample evidence that a ball shifted off the powder is indeed dangerous, and will reliably blow up our guns, but I don't think the same is true of shot loads in smooth bores. And I attempted to explain my reasons for believing that.

I think this is another of a long list of things which are passed down to the newbies as gospel but has not a shred of real evidence to support it.

I wasn't asking a question, but I will. Does anyone have any evidence of any kind that a shifted shot load in a ML shotgun has ever blown up a gun?

Spence

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Spence,

What do you suppose would happen if the shot column had slipped perhaps an inch down the bore due to a couple of firings and reloads of the other barrel; then a rabbit breaks cover and you swing and shoot that barrel?

Would the one inch gap between the still seated wads and the shot charge be a bore obstruction?

Could it slit the old thin barrel wall construction use in some of those fine old doubles? That fact is we do not know for certain.

While you or I may never have had a charge slip forward, I do use a double shot wad in my old original 12 bore because I have had the shot wad skew and dribble out some of the shot charge. At the time I dismissed it as not having seated the wad properly and a double shot wad was less likely to seat wrong.

The point is, if it can happen, it will happen, and usually to the newbie that had not developed a feel for all that can go wrong.

Hence a word of warning is not out of place no matter how unlikely the chance of it happening.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well, this has been exciting and fun, as usual, but I apparently failed to make my point. As usual.

I didn't ask a question, I just expressed the opinion that even if a load of shot shifted in the bore it wouldn't be dangerous. We have ample evidence that a ball shifted off the powder is indeed dangerous, and will reliably blow up our guns, but I don't think the same is true of shot loads in smooth bores. And I attempted to explain my reasons for believing that.

I think this is another of a long list of things which are passed down to the newbies as gospel but has not a shred of real evidence to support it.

I wasn't asking a question, but I will. Does anyone have any evidence of any kind that a shifted shot load in a ML shotgun has ever blown up a gun?

Spence

No Sir.

B.

 

[George]

Would the one inch gap between the still seated wads and the shot charge be a bore obstruction?

That's my point, it wouldn't. If the load shifts, it will only be the overshot wad and the shot, the overpowder wads and the powder will stay in place. What happens if you put loose shot into a space 1" bigger than its volume? It doesn't stay together like a solid, it's just loose shot, it settles to the bottom, whichever way that happens to be, depending on how you are holding the gun. No matter where it settles, if you fire it there is no obstruction, the gasses can escape without a pressure spike.

I agree that if the overpowder wad, the shot and the overshot wad all shift forward as a unit, so the shot is contained in a space only big enough to hold it, then you have an obstruction. That's the crucial point, it doesn't do that.

Spence

 

[Claude Mathis]

Not aimed at you Spence, you just happen to have the last post.

Just a reminder.

Keep your private conversations private. Do not post your private bickering in the open forums.

Stop using the :bull: smilie in every post. If there's that much BS here, maybe you're on the wrong forum?

There are no second chances - the next personal comment will result in your account(s) being deleted.

 

[Dave K]

I do not have an experience of a shifting load in a shotgun will blow a gun. Nor do I have that problem in a rifle. BUT, we do know in a rifle that a short started load can ring or possibly blow a barrel. I do not think that a shotgun barrel is any smarter than a rifle barrel. If the load is not snug, the barrel doesn't know that it is a load of shot or a round ball. All it knows is that there is or could be a sufficient rise in pressures, that can be detrimental to barrel, shooter or bystander. I have seen many old shotgun barrels that have blown, but I do not know the reason as the shooter wasn't around to tell me what happened.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I do not have an experience of a shifting load in a shotgun will blow a gun. Nor do I have that problem in a rifle. BUT, we do know in a rifle that a short started load can ring or possibly blow a barrel. I do not think that a shotgun barrel is any smarter than a rifle barrel. If the load is not snug, the barrel doesn't know that it is a load of shot or a round ball. All it knows is that there is or could be a sufficient rise in pressures, that can be detrimental to barrel, shooter or bystander. I have seen many old shotgun barrels that have blown, but I do not know the reason as the shooter wasn't around to tell me what happened.

Barrel self awareness has nowt to do with it!
Shot is fluid, ball is not. Shot that has moved forward is no longer filling the cylinder but lying as if in a trough, now comes the wads under pressure,,,,, the shot acts as a gradual brake on the wads and the wad is tipped alowing pressure to escape maybe. Also there is no trapped air being compressed between a fixed stationary obstruction and the charge, the common believed cause to a burst barrel!

HTH.

B.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I do have a dandy old breach loader with a slight bulge in the muzzle where snow, mud or such had obstructed the bore. Also, I did show a fellow shooter who was showing a ring in this rifle barrel that it just happen to coincide with the length of his short starter.

I cannot say what would happen if the barrel was point down and the wads jumped a small gap before hitting the shot column. I will say it is probably better if it did not happen. :wink:

It might seem the blow by around the card and cushion wad would blast the loose packed shot and over shot wad down the barrel preventing a true obstruction. However we do know that it does not take much of an obstruction to bulge even a modern shotgun barrel.

I the end, I only have ten fingers and I would hate to break a matched set because my intuition was wrong. :hmm:

 

[tenngun]

First let me be clear, its been 35 yeaars since I owned a sxs.At that time I shot first r then l. I always ran the rod down the barrel when I was loading the fired barrel. I used it for bunnies in new mexico and never needed a quik second shot.I missed or hit but never had time for a second.Now to the juice;on one thread the forum spends 6 pages voting for or mostly against blowing down an empty barrel.. somthing I always do,but somehow people are arguing that treating a second shot as if it could have sliped is not needed to be safe.By the by I dont recall any evedince that a shot moved,on the other hand it seemed the best practice.Like chicen soup it can't hurt

 

[Britsmoothy]

I agree, I too store the rammer in the unfired barrel whilst loading the other.

In close to 20 years using a double M/L shotgun the un-fired barrel has not shifted forward because as said I check also when storing the rammer in the unfiered,,,,,.

I destinctly remember an occasion when readying a 10g double- on the morning of a pheasant hunt by a large group of us! I foolishly dropped some powder and placed just a few OS cards on top of the powder to act as a wad and fierd it off with nothing above the cards!

The cards just flipped and stayed down the barrel all day! They hampered the whole day because I had no tool to get them out!

They had turned and let the gasses pass!

I agree,by all means check. And if the unfired load has moved and moves everytime find a solution. It is not acceptable nor is it a reason to condemn double barreled M/L shotguns.

A M/L shotgun is a wonderful piece of equipment, it can be loaded in so many ways, wadding material is abuntant in many many forms and keeping an open mind will always overcome a problem with a troubled gun.

B. :thumbsup:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Maybe, it is old school but I always used to blow down the barrel. The thought of dumping powder down a barrel wafting smoke still gives me the willies. :shocked2:

However I do not make the club rules and if they do not allow it, I do not do it. I will admit since they stopped blowing down the barrel, I have dropped many hundreds of powder charges without incident.

I am certainly not trying to re-open the debate; just pointing out that old habit die hard. :grin:

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Maybe, it is old school but I always used to blow down the barrel. The thought of dumping powder down a barrel wafting smoke still gives me the willies. :shocked2:

...

Maybe it's just me, but when I blow on an ember it glows brighter. When I want it to go out, I leave it alone for a few seconds.

On topic,
I've shot ML doubles for 25 years (a Pedersoli SXS and a Beretta commemorative O/U) and I've never had a problem when firing the second barrel. Even IF the second load shifted, it was small enough to have no effect. ML doubles have been widely used for over a 150 years, IMO shifting loads is a non-issue.
I have no qualms shooting my second barrel in quick succession to the first. If I do decide to reload without firing the second barrel, I follow the usual safety precautions: de-cap unfired nipple; place ramrod in the loaded barrel to avoid confusion and double charging a barrel (may as well give the ramrod a push, since it's already there, to ensure the unfired load is seated); load the empty barrel; return the ramrod to the ferrules so you don't fire it downrange; point muzzles in a safe direction and re-cap the nipples.

Regards,
Mike

 

[aeatwood]

In my Pedersoli double, I use TIGHT card wads. .750", of heavy Walmart poster board. or pizza box, or similar. They fit so tight that if I don't let the pressure bleed down, they will throw the ramrod a considerable distance into the air. I don't use cushion wads, just 2 heavy card wads ( or 4 thin ones OP, and a thin tight one OS. I, too, put the RR in the unfired barrel if I'm only loading one, and I've never had a charge move. (only had my double a couple years though)