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Shooting Indian Imports
- Thread starter chuckpa
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I shot the Cookson maybe a dozen times today but my frizzen went soft on me again. :shake: I torch hardened it but I didn't get much of a case on it, I have to get the forge up and running. I fired a few shot loads and the gun still amazes me at how well it handles small shot. I get really good patterns out to 35 yards and have not really done any load development. I am going to have to get the frizzen problen worked out before I can do very much serious shooting with it. I do know it is hitting low and left with RB's and that will be a fairly easy fix. Keep Shooting! :thumbsup:
Leonredbeard
54 Cal.
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ChuckPA,
You know, I think the last time I was there I actually did see it. Picked it up and checked the dog movement.
I'm not into buying right now. I am building the lock for the wheeler pistole. I have the lock for the 38 inch, Getz .62 smooth swamped barrel sitting there waiting. The wood is also drying for my 31 inch Getz .62 smooth swamped barrel, which, if I build it, will be a flinter, maybe a nice round faced English from Chambers.
Then I want to build a self bow. Hee Hee, I just keep going back in time.
volatpluvia
You know, I think the last time I was there I actually did see it. Picked it up and checked the dog movement.
I'm not into buying right now. I am building the lock for the wheeler pistole. I have the lock for the 38 inch, Getz .62 smooth swamped barrel sitting there waiting. The wood is also drying for my 31 inch Getz .62 smooth swamped barrel, which, if I build it, will be a flinter, maybe a nice round faced English from Chambers.
Then I want to build a self bow. Hee Hee, I just keep going back in time.
volatpluvia
I'll apologize in advance for the poor report! I was able to fire my MVTC .62 double barreled flint lock pistol yesterday but didn't get much in useful information to report. I was at a buddies in North Carolina and since there were kids and other folks there we only fired the pistol a half dozen times before moving onto the .22s and modern weapons.
I shot a square load of 30 grains of 2F Goex and 7 1/2 shot (I used one of the prepackaged 100 shot sets of cards and wads that Dixon's in Kempton, PA sells, wad lubed with peanut oil) and 40 grains of 2F and a PRB (over powder card from the above set, 12 guage cleaning patch lubed with spit and cut off at the muzzle, and .595 RB) and I was using flints (held with leather scraps) that I bought from MVTC with the pistol. one shot of shot from each barrel and 2 shots of PRB from each barrel.
I only shot it from about 5 yards on IDPA cardboard targets and we didn't have a camera handy. The shot had a pretty wide spread (I would guess about a foot) and the PRB hit the target but no real accuracy testing was done. The big problem was getting ignition. I will admit I have only limited experience with percussion weapons and this is my first rock lock and none of the other folks there had any experience with flints. I tried to set the flint in to strike the frizzen square one with the bevel down. The hammer springs are VERY HEAVY and almost every shot broke off pieces of flint. The first two shots (of shot) went off fine but after that it took 3-5 tries for each barrel. No flashes in the pan and observers commented they didn't see sparks on the occasions nothing happened.
Recoil was very light and it was fun (but frustrating) to shoot. I am pretty sure all the problems are due to my inexperience. Having someone that knows what they are doing look over the pistol would really help as would an face to face class for myself.
While I was there one of the guys got an old rusted flintlock pistol out of their shed and gave it to me, it looks like a Traditions but the only markings are black powder only and Spain. It is missing the nose cap, ramrod, and the front site is bent. I plan on cleaning it up and playing with it, there is an incredible difference in the lock of it and the MVTC. The Traditions hammer spring is MUCH lighter and the trigger is much smoother.
As for the MVTC pistol I either need to link up with someone to give me a class or sell it, TOTW has said they will sell it for me if I like.
I shot a square load of 30 grains of 2F Goex and 7 1/2 shot (I used one of the prepackaged 100 shot sets of cards and wads that Dixon's in Kempton, PA sells, wad lubed with peanut oil) and 40 grains of 2F and a PRB (over powder card from the above set, 12 guage cleaning patch lubed with spit and cut off at the muzzle, and .595 RB) and I was using flints (held with leather scraps) that I bought from MVTC with the pistol. one shot of shot from each barrel and 2 shots of PRB from each barrel.
I only shot it from about 5 yards on IDPA cardboard targets and we didn't have a camera handy. The shot had a pretty wide spread (I would guess about a foot) and the PRB hit the target but no real accuracy testing was done. The big problem was getting ignition. I will admit I have only limited experience with percussion weapons and this is my first rock lock and none of the other folks there had any experience with flints. I tried to set the flint in to strike the frizzen square one with the bevel down. The hammer springs are VERY HEAVY and almost every shot broke off pieces of flint. The first two shots (of shot) went off fine but after that it took 3-5 tries for each barrel. No flashes in the pan and observers commented they didn't see sparks on the occasions nothing happened.
Recoil was very light and it was fun (but frustrating) to shoot. I am pretty sure all the problems are due to my inexperience. Having someone that knows what they are doing look over the pistol would really help as would an face to face class for myself.
While I was there one of the guys got an old rusted flintlock pistol out of their shed and gave it to me, it looks like a Traditions but the only markings are black powder only and Spain. It is missing the nose cap, ramrod, and the front site is bent. I plan on cleaning it up and playing with it, there is an incredible difference in the lock of it and the MVTC. The Traditions hammer spring is MUCH lighter and the trigger is much smoother.
As for the MVTC pistol I either need to link up with someone to give me a class or sell it, TOTW has said they will sell it for me if I like.
It is probably a heavy frizzen spring rather than the main spring that is eating your flints. I had the same problem with the Cookson. Stressing them a little past the amount of deflection that the frizzen gives will lighten it so it doesn't chew flints for lunch. Just go slow and easy so you don't weaken the spring too much. How is your trigger pull? The Cookson was very heavy at 30 lbs or maybe even a little heavier. I reshaped the sear notch and now have it around 4 lbs.
No doubt I'm using the wrong terminology. The hammers take quite a bit of force to cock, the frizzens also have heavy springs so that probably is the problem. The triggers are both very heavy as well. The only other flint I have to compare to it is the rusted Traditions Pistol and in all respects everything is easier to manipulate. I'm of two minds at the moment as to whether I keep this or not. Your comments about your frizzen going soft have me a bit worried as well. At this point in my life I dont' have a garage, shop, or basement (all my firearm cleaning and the like is done in the kitchen) and I'm not the most "handy" person when it comes to mechanical items. I know when it comes to lightening springs I am over my head (at least until shown how) and I wonder if I shouldn't sell this "kit gun" for a more finished product.
Yeah the frizzens going soft has been a issue with my blunderbess bought from discriminating general, after alot of shots shes now in need of a heavy rehardening, but in comparison , my loyalist long land has been shot ALOT and the frizzen is still showering sparks??
Maybe each company has a different procedure for hardening them , I dont know...
I myself like strong hammer springs, I would rather grind the flint and get a quick ignition then a light scraping and have a noticable delay.
Loads for my blunder bess have been 40-50 grains ffg/with 4x 36 cal balls patched with newspaper, thats a fun load, thats pretty much useless for anything except obliterating underbrush :haha:
Or
50 grains ffg with a heavily patched 61 cal ball its hard to aim due to the small butt but acceptable out to say 15- 25 yards....So far these have been fun.
The long land bess I find gives the best accuracy with 60-65 grains ffg with a patched 69 cal ball can group 12-16 inches at I would estimate a distance of say 50 yards
with more practise and maybe stouter loads I might do better and further out.
"distances are estimations due to shooting primarily in the bush"
I love my long land but am very smitten with the look of that cookson fowler.
As a side note loyalist hardens frizzens "around 20 bucks I think"
If your frizzen is soft it is a option
Cheers guys
Rob
Maybe each company has a different procedure for hardening them , I dont know...
I myself like strong hammer springs, I would rather grind the flint and get a quick ignition then a light scraping and have a noticable delay.
Loads for my blunder bess have been 40-50 grains ffg/with 4x 36 cal balls patched with newspaper, thats a fun load, thats pretty much useless for anything except obliterating underbrush :haha:
Or
50 grains ffg with a heavily patched 61 cal ball its hard to aim due to the small butt but acceptable out to say 15- 25 yards....So far these have been fun.
The long land bess I find gives the best accuracy with 60-65 grains ffg with a patched 69 cal ball can group 12-16 inches at I would estimate a distance of say 50 yards
with more practise and maybe stouter loads I might do better and further out.
"distances are estimations due to shooting primarily in the bush"
I love my long land but am very smitten with the look of that cookson fowler.
As a side note loyalist hardens frizzens "around 20 bucks I think"
If your frizzen is soft it is a option
Cheers guys
Rob
Geeze, I wish I could get twenty bucks for hardening a frizzen, that would be about two bucks a minute. :grin: I'd be making almost as much as a cheap lawyer! :haha:
An easy home method is to wrap the frizzen tightly with wet buckskin or any thin leather, several layers of leather then wrap it all in aluminum foil. Bury the bundle in live coals at the draft of a wood stove, grill, or in a campfire fanned with a blow pipe to a bright hot burn. Let it "soak" in the heat for half an hour then drop the whole bundle directly into cold water. The old timers would have used clay instead of the foil but foil is easier to work with. The object is to bake the leather into charcoal and let the iron absorb the carbon, then quench quickly. The steel itself must be red hot when quenched so if stll soft after the quench, just reheat the bare frizzen and quench again. I've had very good luck with that method but you must be certain it is a soft iron or mild steel frizzen, as all original frizzens were and new Indian frizzens are. If it is a high carbon frizzen it will crack when quenched in water.
An easy home method is to wrap the frizzen tightly with wet buckskin or any thin leather, several layers of leather then wrap it all in aluminum foil. Bury the bundle in live coals at the draft of a wood stove, grill, or in a campfire fanned with a blow pipe to a bright hot burn. Let it "soak" in the heat for half an hour then drop the whole bundle directly into cold water. The old timers would have used clay instead of the foil but foil is easier to work with. The object is to bake the leather into charcoal and let the iron absorb the carbon, then quench quickly. The steel itself must be red hot when quenched so if stll soft after the quench, just reheat the bare frizzen and quench again. I've had very good luck with that method but you must be certain it is a soft iron or mild steel frizzen, as all original frizzens were and new Indian frizzens are. If it is a high carbon frizzen it will crack when quenched in water.
Runball, Hi I am new here, and read on pg 1 that you pump parts of loads, using wads. That last thing you want is to pump charged breeches.
If the ram rod follows your hand up when loading, you can be certain the down stroke is creating compression.
Under the correct conditions, compression can raise temps high enough to set off the charge, and you won't like it much. This works the same way the compression fire starters work.
Chances are remote this will happen, but still the idea is valid, and it has happened.
I figure so long as you are aware, the choice is yours.
To ALL:
Often times these days cock angles are incorrect, which can smash flints on frizzens. It depends on the angles you have as to what must be done.
Sometimes you can heat the cock jaws, and bend them to be correct, and sometimes you can change the frizzen for one shaped with more or less curve.
I own a Nor West Gun as a kit from Curly, who is now hunting in the 'Happy Hunting Ground'. This gun did have to get a more curved frizzen.
Frizzens are fussy little buggers aren't they.
Lots of things can go wrong with these. They need to ride the spring, and cam over 2 ways smoothly.
It is pretty easy to cut right thru the case hard, but it isn't to hard to re-case harden them.
Another method which is interesting is you can forge out a hand file to be thin, and once shaped to fit the frizzen face you can make rivets and rivet the file face to the frizzen face, which was done way back then too.
Doing that can fix frizzens pretty well, and it creates an interesting look if the rivets are made of common nails and are counter bored, being filed flush.
With this method you can 'draw' the frizzen to be dead soft, which makes it more able to with stand shock, and still have a glass hard face for the flint to cut.
If the ram rod follows your hand up when loading, you can be certain the down stroke is creating compression.
Under the correct conditions, compression can raise temps high enough to set off the charge, and you won't like it much. This works the same way the compression fire starters work.
Chances are remote this will happen, but still the idea is valid, and it has happened.
I figure so long as you are aware, the choice is yours.
To ALL:
Often times these days cock angles are incorrect, which can smash flints on frizzens. It depends on the angles you have as to what must be done.
Sometimes you can heat the cock jaws, and bend them to be correct, and sometimes you can change the frizzen for one shaped with more or less curve.
I own a Nor West Gun as a kit from Curly, who is now hunting in the 'Happy Hunting Ground'. This gun did have to get a more curved frizzen.
Frizzens are fussy little buggers aren't they.
Lots of things can go wrong with these. They need to ride the spring, and cam over 2 ways smoothly.
It is pretty easy to cut right thru the case hard, but it isn't to hard to re-case harden them.
Another method which is interesting is you can forge out a hand file to be thin, and once shaped to fit the frizzen face you can make rivets and rivet the file face to the frizzen face, which was done way back then too.
Doing that can fix frizzens pretty well, and it creates an interesting look if the rivets are made of common nails and are counter bored, being filed flush.
With this method you can 'draw' the frizzen to be dead soft, which makes it more able to with stand shock, and still have a glass hard face for the flint to cut.
The over powder wad was loading fine. It was the cushion and over shot wads that would build up pressure. I do understand where you are coming though. :wink: The over powder wad pretty much isolates the powder charge from any heat build up that the compression of the air between other two wads would generate. This is adiabatic heating and as soon as the pressure is released the temperature goes back down to normal. I wasn't slamming these wads down hard with all my weight behind them, after they bounced a couple of times the edge would turn and they went down fine. I am now pricking them. No need to take unnecessary chances. :hatsoff:
Well I am new here, and have no idea what others, as yer ol scruffy self knows. I run a Bess and a Nor West gun and suffered pumping the rod on the top card too, so all I was doing which you took well enough was pointing this out incase you didn't know.
I have no need for like minded, would be friends to go a' blowin themselves ta' bit's ya know? You know.
I have no need for like minded, would be friends to go a' blowin themselves ta' bit's ya know? You know.
- Joined
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If Chuck Dixon recommended punching a hole in the center of the overshot and cushion wads, and Chuckpa had good results doing it, then that's a powerful argument for doing it! It might not work for everyone, but it seems to make more sense than nicking an edge, and certainly Chuck Dixon has the "been there, done that" credentials to make me sit up and listen.
I haven't tried my Indian pistol with shot yet - the RHR pistol, but I might soon, because right now I'm getting "minute of barn" accuracy out of the pistol with no sights and the smoothbore .52 bbl. Just using a thicker patch now. I did try 40 gr. of FFg the last time I shot it, because I'd left my FFFg at home, and the gun seemed to like it - I got a nice "bang" and some definite recoil - although shooting at an empty (never filled) junk 5 gal propane tank @ 35 yds I couldn't hit anything. Others were shooting, and I couldn't try at my preferred range for this gun, which would have been about 3 yds. :wink:
Chuck, I've gathered a lot of info on your wonderful b-day present (non-muzzleloading, but among the nicest presents I've ever received). Give me a call, and let's chew the fat.
I haven't tried my Indian pistol with shot yet - the RHR pistol, but I might soon, because right now I'm getting "minute of barn" accuracy out of the pistol with no sights and the smoothbore .52 bbl. Just using a thicker patch now. I did try 40 gr. of FFg the last time I shot it, because I'd left my FFFg at home, and the gun seemed to like it - I got a nice "bang" and some definite recoil - although shooting at an empty (never filled) junk 5 gal propane tank @ 35 yds I couldn't hit anything. Others were shooting, and I couldn't try at my preferred range for this gun, which would have been about 3 yds. :wink:
Chuck, I've gathered a lot of info on your wonderful b-day present (non-muzzleloading, but among the nicest presents I've ever received). Give me a call, and let's chew the fat.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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If Chuck Dixon recommended center punching a hole in the CENTER of OS cards, go ahead and try it. But try putting holes off-center, too, and just use two such cards, particularly in a DB pistol, where the recoil from firing one barrel has the possibility of loosening the wads in the unfired barrel, allowing the shot load to move forward.
I find that purposely putting hole in the OS cards OFF-CENTER is actually easier than hitting the center. Maybe my eye is cockeyed, or something, but unless I am using a drill press and some sort of fixture or "jig" to hold the cards, center punching holes is a challenge to me.
Jim Rackham's method is faster and easier for me to do, and loading the cards so the holes are NOT aligned is also fast and easy to remember to do.
I don't think its all that important where a hole is punched in a cushion wad. In fact, I am loading 20 gauge cushion wads in a 19 gauge barrel, because I have a whole box of them, and I found that using the slightly smaller cushion wads made them much easier to load. They still lube the barrel well when the gun fires, because they are compressed during firing.
IN theory, the cushion wad protects the soft shot from being distorted upon the initial firing when the gas has to overcome the weight and friction of the wads and shot in front of it, to escape out the muzzle of the gun. The secondary purpose of the wad most people give it is to carry some lube to grease the bore as the charge goes down the barrel in order to soften residue that follows behind the cushion wad and OP Wad. I don't want pellets imbedding themselve in the front of the cushion wad. I have been putting an OS card on top of the cushion wad to give a smooth, harder surface behind the shot that will push the shot out of the barrel, releasing the shot at the crown evenly.
I find that purposely putting hole in the OS cards OFF-CENTER is actually easier than hitting the center. Maybe my eye is cockeyed, or something, but unless I am using a drill press and some sort of fixture or "jig" to hold the cards, center punching holes is a challenge to me.
Jim Rackham's method is faster and easier for me to do, and loading the cards so the holes are NOT aligned is also fast and easy to remember to do.
I don't think its all that important where a hole is punched in a cushion wad. In fact, I am loading 20 gauge cushion wads in a 19 gauge barrel, because I have a whole box of them, and I found that using the slightly smaller cushion wads made them much easier to load. They still lube the barrel well when the gun fires, because they are compressed during firing.
IN theory, the cushion wad protects the soft shot from being distorted upon the initial firing when the gas has to overcome the weight and friction of the wads and shot in front of it, to escape out the muzzle of the gun. The secondary purpose of the wad most people give it is to carry some lube to grease the bore as the charge goes down the barrel in order to soften residue that follows behind the cushion wad and OP Wad. I don't want pellets imbedding themselve in the front of the cushion wad. I have been putting an OS card on top of the cushion wad to give a smooth, harder surface behind the shot that will push the shot out of the barrel, releasing the shot at the crown evenly.
colmoultrie , Try a bigger target made of card board so large as you can find, and move into 25 yards. Use a marker to make a X.
Shoot learning to 'see' the sight picture.
My "English Naval Officer's Pistol" has no sights.
To shoot it 25 and 35 yards is a matter of knowing the gun, and learning to see a sight picture not there.
This gun is something I made, from no kit, and the barrel is octagon tapered to the weddingband, and then swamped towards the muzzel.
When I hold it right the tang screw slot points about where the target is. This screw is flush with the tang, so no sight.
The wood stock is as high almost at the muzzel OD, shimmering in sight, as my hand wiggles a bit these days. But that gets you on a card board 3'x 3'.
Shooting off hand at 30 yards I seem to be able to make hits on a target 2' x 3' more or less centrally located.
To me this is a gun for show more than to hunt. it has no sights and isn't for serious target work either.
What it was for back then was to give officers a way to get a panicing crew to function. "If you don't turn and face the enemy, Me a good Officer I will have no choice to shoot you myself" sort of thing... Aborad a man od War, that means you are at a very close distance.
The one I made is a 0.62 bore, and I use 20 grains of (2F) FFg and a .600 ball. That charge will pass plywood, but I would hesitate to shoot steel targets, as the ball just might bounce off and come right back.
I consider this gun to be minute of dog house. A real big dog house.
Shoot learning to 'see' the sight picture.
My "English Naval Officer's Pistol" has no sights.
To shoot it 25 and 35 yards is a matter of knowing the gun, and learning to see a sight picture not there.
This gun is something I made, from no kit, and the barrel is octagon tapered to the weddingband, and then swamped towards the muzzel.
When I hold it right the tang screw slot points about where the target is. This screw is flush with the tang, so no sight.
The wood stock is as high almost at the muzzel OD, shimmering in sight, as my hand wiggles a bit these days. But that gets you on a card board 3'x 3'.
Shooting off hand at 30 yards I seem to be able to make hits on a target 2' x 3' more or less centrally located.
To me this is a gun for show more than to hunt. it has no sights and isn't for serious target work either.
What it was for back then was to give officers a way to get a panicing crew to function. "If you don't turn and face the enemy, Me a good Officer I will have no choice to shoot you myself" sort of thing... Aborad a man od War, that means you are at a very close distance.
The one I made is a 0.62 bore, and I use 20 grains of (2F) FFg and a .600 ball. That charge will pass plywood, but I would hesitate to shoot steel targets, as the ball just might bounce off and come right back.
I consider this gun to be minute of dog house. A real big dog house.
:v I have the MTV Matchlock Pistol and until I test fire that beast I don't trust the barrel, I will not run any tests for you. The generally pi$$ poor workmanship doesn't give me any confidence and there ain't no returns with them. Maybe I run some tests tied to a tire when the weather gets mor amenable to being outdoors. :hatsoff:
I was a little worried myself, especially since we didn't have a tire handy! I ended up putting on some level 4 body armor (the kind that stops multiple rifle rounds), a kevlar (helmet), and fired with my left hand as I am right handed! :rotf:
The double barrel pistol shot fine and I am still intact although I don't plan on loading it any hotter then I did, in fact I think I'll back the 40 gr FF loads for the PRB down to 30 from now on. Other then the exploding Bess are there other reports of Indian barrels letting go after being stressed for a while?
The double barrel pistol shot fine and I am still intact although I don't plan on loading it any hotter then I did, in fact I think I'll back the 40 gr FF loads for the PRB down to 30 from now on. Other then the exploding Bess are there other reports of Indian barrels letting go after being stressed for a while?
That exploding Bess thing has been beaten to death on the forums. I hope to keep this topic on shooting these guns. I also never saw any concrete evidence that it was an Indian gun that was shown in the picture. I hope we can stay on shooting thanks guys.
Sorry about that!
Russ T Frizzen
70 Cal.
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If you want to see the photos of the gun go to page 11 in this forum and scroll down to the heading "Burst musket barrel question". You'll find a link to the photos a little way down. You can decide for yourself whether it is an Indian made musket or not. You can access the entire thread with this link so you can get the whole story. I believe the moral of this story is Caveat Emptor!
