Shooting Military rifles like they were designed to be used

[APG]

Your cartridges look a lot better than mine, I like those. I kinda get lazy and just put mine together with glue and the paper, with a dowel. I don't cast my own Minies but my "bullet source" guy casts them for me and they drop out of his mold at about .580 so I can size them to .577 or .575 depending on which rifle I use them in, after I hot dip them in lube.

I can roll 50 cartridges in about 3 hours if I really get into it and don't get distracted.

The cartridge boxes make them easy to transport to wherever I'm shooting, and I usually don't wear it, but today I did. I usually lay it on a range table if I'm not walking around on the range. My club doesn't care if you shoot in front of the firing line as long as no one else is shooting obviously . I think I'd be entertaining any onlookers if I speared a target with a bayonet

The secret to good looking paper cartridges is stick glue. I put it on the edge of the paper I roll around my dowel and then I glue the tail part down with a bit of glue as well. Keeps it looking nice.

 

[dylan84]

Looks like fun! Will have to pick up one of these rifled muskets at some point.

 

[GR50036]

Did the North import English cartridges? I've never read that they did and I can't believe that they wouldn't have been using Burton balls in standard US arsenal cartridges in their Enfields. So maybe only Pritchett bullets were intended, but not generally in use by Union troops?

I just read Brett Gibbons “The English Cartridge” and he mentioned that Federal Troops were taught that they could be used in their rifles, but it doesn’t sound like the North actually imported them. Just used captured ammunition.

 

[springfield art]

I don't want to come off as a "Gatekeeper ", an Elitist or a snob. People can use their firearms any way they want. I nor anyone else has the right to "tell" anyone how to use something they paid for and own.

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I have just seen , over the years, countless videos , some from "Experts" , loading military muzzleloading rifles with patched balls, loose Minies, etc etc

I highly recommend, using these weapons the way they were designed to be used and were actually used in their military service .

I have the technical skills of a rock and if I can lube and size Minies, and make paper cartridges, anyone can. It adds SO much to the enjoyment of these firearms .

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Being able to put on a cartridge box with 50 cartridges, and a cap box, and just shoot one after the other is just something special that I will never get tired of.

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There was no one else around so I had fun shooting at the target at various ranges, I'd fire one at 100, then walk up about 10 yards and load and fire another one. Or just stand at 25 and fire 10 rounds into the target.

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Having all your ammunition on you , is not only historically correct but just more fun.

50 .577 Minies down the pipe, no wiping, no cleaning , if I had 50 more I'd have fired those too.

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25 yard target. Just to be transparent. I'm not that good at 100.

I'm with you, and your attitude toward it is A-OK. My first Enfield around 1963-64 I shot but didn't know about making paper ctgs., etc. I liked your post, photos, and comments. Good luck!

 

[ord sgt]

The best accuracy I got out of my Enfields was 44 grains FFFg and a 500 grain minie. I don't know who made the mould. No name or brand mark on the mould. I bought it at Fort Ross. The former owner had passed away. His wife had a friend put all of his kit put up for sale.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I don't want to come off as a "Gatekeeper ", an Elitist or a snob. People can use their firearms any way they want. I nor anyone else has the right to "tell" anyone how to use something they paid for and own.

View attachment 181147

I have just seen , over the years, countless videos , some from "Experts" , loading military muzzleloading rifles with patched balls, loose Minies, etc etc

I highly recommend, using these weapons the way they were designed to be used and were actually used in their military service .

I have the technical skills of a rock and if I can lube and size Minies, and make paper cartridges, anyone can. It adds SO much to the enjoyment of these firearms .

View attachment 181148

Being able to put on a cartridge box with 50 cartridges, and a cap box, and just shoot one after the other is just something special that I will never get tired of.

View attachment 181149

There was no one else around so I had fun shooting at the target at various ranges, I'd fire one at 100, then walk up about 10 yards and load and fire another one. Or just stand at 25 and fire 10 rounds into the target.

View attachment 181150

Having all your ammunition on you , is not only historically correct but just more fun.

50 .577 Minies down the pipe, no wiping, no cleaning , if I had 50 more I'd have fired those too.

View attachment 181151

25 yard target. Just to be transparent. I'm not that good at 100.

most guys would palm off that 25 yd target as shot at 100 yds lol

 

[Stantheman86]

most guys would palm off that 25 yd target as shot at 100 yds lol

Some guys do get "fuzzy" on the distance like , it was probably dam near 90 yards really once you get to the firing line

 

[Stantheman86]

I do recall reading that the early British rifle matches required using as-issued paper cartridges, and a "measure" was used to make sure the cartridge rollers put a proper charge in

American cartridge "contractors " were known to short cartridges to save powder but I think that applied more to revolver cartridges

I don't shoot in matches or N-SSA , I just try to replicate as closely as possible the cartridges that should be used . Match shooting and competition has evolved into it's own little world with these weapons.

When I eventually fire my original 1861 Springfield , it will be with cartridges I made with the service charges in them. There's no point in taking the old guy out of retirement to shoot Mouse fart rounds

 

[Calum]

I wouldn't laugh at the N-SSA if you saw how well their members shoot their weapons. They're masters at getting the best out them accuracy wise while exercising safety rules. Have you ever seen what they can do with artillery? What special sights are you referring to. Taller front sights? Civil War soldiers used to make wood extensions to their rear sights for higher elevation and drilled peep holes in the sight leafs. The firing line at Fort Shenandoah is a quarter mile long. The thought that thousands of paper cartridges going down range could start a grass fire has merit. Sharps cartridges are a different animal and behave differently in the chamber. However, if you're using clip tail cartridges, you're have a potential unsafe condition caused by accumulated powder under the forestock. As far as reduced loads go, the idea is to hit rather small targets with consistency rather than man sized ones that don't require the same kind of accuracy. They're "killing" clay birds and ceramic tiles, not people. BTW, I'm curious as to what type of rifle musket you're shooting. If it's an Enfield and you're not using Enfield cartridges with a Pritchett bullet, then your not using it as intended.

Gemmer, the OP stated shooting as intended. While the NSSA may be target accurate, they are not shooting as intended, so yes, I will laugh at them. Particularly when they tout their historical accuracy.

A visit to their site shows discussions on glass-bedding the barrels, use of graphite and powder coated bullets, higher front sights installed (not makeshift) which bayonets will not fit over, specifically sized bullets to the individual rifles, light/tailored loads, etc.

I’m not going to debate their target accuracy, but calling them historically accurate, they ain’t.

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

"Competition shooters" vs "The Purists" exists in every aspect of the shooting sports

Competition Creep is inevitable. This is like how guys claim the 1858 Remington is "superior " because it is a better match revolver platform , because it can be rebarreled and carefully loaded with a cylinder loader, etc. Etc.....but people like me are like , yes but that falls outside the intended use of an 1858 as a service revolver and has nothing to do with it's historical use.

Taking repro rifle-muskets and adding huge front sights, graphite lubed Minies, carefully sized bullets and worked up charges is "competition creep" that has evolved over decades , because human nature is to want every edge to win. We are competitive by nature. I recall reading about N-SSA guys "cheating " back in the 1970s by putting Trapdoor lock parts in original 1861 Springfields to give it a "quick lock" for shorter lock time.

If everyone is allowed the same "tweaks " then whatever

I'd rather shoot 4" groups with cartridges as close to what I would have received in the period as I can make. I shoot for the historical immersion, not for tight groups . If they were expected to shoot 4-6" at 100 in 1861 then I'm happy with 4-6". If my original '61 can still shoot into 6" with .575 Minies and 60gr of 2f , I'll be ecstatic

The first Burton balls were .5775 in 1855 and the size went to .575 to accommodate more rifles. But .577 Minies existed too, plus pretty much every size was made by various contractors, especially for the CS so I don't get too hung up on size but I prefer a .575 as a "standard". I use 2f or 3f, but I use 60 grains in my cartridges. The Pritchett cartridges use 68-70 of 1.5f according to Brett, it's the closest to the original charge.

This is why many of the military rifle matches I shot in required military surplus ammo or at least factory ammunition. So everyone had "military " grade stuff and no one had pet handloads and a glass bedded Mauser. Guys still got caught trying to sneak things in.

 

[Stantheman86]

I wouldn't laugh at the N-SSA if you saw how well their members shoot their weapons. They're masters at getting the best out them accuracy wise while exercising safety rules. Have you ever seen what they can do with artillery? What special sights are you referring to. Taller front sights? Civil War soldiers used to make wood extensions to their rear sights for higher elevation and drilled peep holes in the sight leafs. The firing line at Fort Shenandoah is a quarter mile long. The thought that thousands of paper cartridges going down range could start a grass fire has merit. Sharps cartridges are a different animal and behave differently in the chamber. However, if you're using clip tail cartridges, you're have a potential unsafe condition caused by accumulated powder under the forestock. As far as reduced loads go, the idea is to hit rather small targets with consistency rather than man sized ones that don't require the same kind of accuracy. They're "killing" clay birds and ceramic tiles, not people. BTW, I'm curious as to what type of rifle musket you're shooting. If it's an Enfield and you're not using Enfield cartridges with a Pritchett bullet, then your not using it as intended.

Every round fired through a P53 during the entirety of it's service by both sides during the American Civil War was not 100% Pritchett cartridges

The US Army issued this pattern of paper cartridge with .575 Burton elongated ball ammunition , for use in both the Springfield and Enfield rifles. Millions of rounds of 1855, 1861 and 1863 US pattern paper cartridges were fired through Enfield rifles.

Did you honestly have to throw that in there? Like a little parting shot


It is a Parker-Hale made in Birmingham. I have an original but I don't shoot it. The P-H is the next best thing to an original.

 

[GR50036]

Every round fired through a P53 during the entirety of it's service by both sides during the American Civil War was not 100% Pritchett cartridges

The US Army issued this pattern of paper cartridge with .575 Burton elongated ball ammunition , for use in both the Springfield and Enfield rifles. Millions of rounds of 1855, 1861 and 1863 US pattern paper cartridges were fired through Enfield rifles.

Did you honestly have to throw that in there? Like a little parting shot


It is a Parker-Hale made in Birmingham. I have an original but I don't shoot it. The P-H is the next best thing to an original.

Should be the Boxer Cartridge!

 

[dave951]

Gemmer, the OP stated shooting as intended. While the NSSA may be target accurate, they are not shooting as intended, so yes, I will laugh at them. Particularly when they tout their historical accuracy.

A visit to their site shows discussions on glass-bedding the barrels, use of graphite and powder coated bullets, higher front sights installed (not makeshift) which bayonets will not fit over, specifically sized bullets to the individual rifles, light/tailored loads, etc.

I’m not going to debate their target accuracy, but calling them historically accurate, they ain’t.

Mike

Since you're bagging on the N-SSA, be consistent. By your standards, the Army Marksmanship Unit are posers too cuz they don't shoot "issue" arms either. By your logic they should be shooting competition with rack grade M4s, use only issue ball ammo, have bayonets fixed and wear full combat gear. Man, that will win matches at Camp Perry.

Make an apples to apples comparison. N-SSA and AMU- both orgs are competition shooters. N-SSA and AMU- both use service "type" arms. N-SSA and AMU- both use tuned arms and custom ammo. Only real difference is time period and technology.

If you want to go shoot issue sights, with what you think should be issue ammo, well bless yer heart. But don't come back whining about accuracy or hitting 18in high or a Godzilla grade trigger pull.

 

[Stantheman86]

Should be the Boxer Cartridge!

I think we're about 10 years too early for that but I hear they were handy against Zulus

 

[Stantheman86]

Looks like fun! Will have to pick up one of these rifled muskets at some point.

They're a lot of fun , deciding between a 3-bander, 2-bander or "Musketoon" for your first one is the hard part

 

[Stantheman86]

The chase for "Match Accuracy" is a wild goose chase for most people, really. Unless you can really dedicate a good portion of your time shooting, tweaking your firearms, and actually competing you're just "peeing " into the wind , really. Not everything can do MOA accuracy or was designed to

If using science , astronomy and algebra at the range to shoot weapons designed to allow an untrained draftee to load and shoot 3x per minute into a man sized target at 100 makes a person feel more accomplished, then do you I shoot at 12"×12" swingers or put up my 4-6" within spec groups at 100 with "Service Cartridges "

The same with any of the Camp Perry matches. How many of us are at that level? I'm not. I just enjoy "historically correct " shooting. I think my M16A1 repro built on a surplus A1 upper I built shoots 2-3" or so at 100. So did most of them. It's ok I'm fine with it. David Tubb would shake his head in disdain at me


I'd advise the "casual shooter" to just buy .575 Minies, a bang thru sizer and a few sticks of bullet lube like MicroLube, and just bang away and have fun. You can find what you need to roll cartridges at a Dollar store. We tend to over think our way out of actually enjoying hobbies sometimes.

 

[Stantheman86]

Crisco in the base of your Miniés anyone?

I was told to do this more times than I can count

 

[Stantheman86]

Did the North import English cartridges? I've never read that they did and I can't believe that they wouldn't have been using Burton balls in standard US arsenal cartridges in their Enfields. So maybe only Pritchett bullets were intended, but not generally in use by Union troops?

I'm not overly familiar with Brett Gibbons' book, but the US Ordnance Dept chose to reduce the Burton to .575 so it could be used in any .58 including the .577 Enfield rifles.

In the movie Glory which did an ok job historically, they are using US Pattern cartridges in their Enfields.

Plenty of Burtons went down the pipes of Enfields in real world use. The CS bought millions of Pritchetts from England and made them also, but the Confederate arsenals were also making versions of the Burton ball cartridges and the Gardner bullet cartridge. I'd bet just as many non-Pritchett bullets were fired through Enfields from 1853-1867 as there were Pritchetts

 

[Piquant]

I was shooting my 1862 richmond today and wasn't doing all that well. Would someone explain or show me how to improve. How to make paper cartridges, the size of Minnie ball your using. Are you casting your own? I just poured the powder and followed with the Minnie. Educate me please.

 

[Stantheman86]

I was shooting my 1862 richmond today and wasn't doing all that well. Would someone explain or show me how to improve. How to make paper cartridges, the size of Minnie ball your using. Are you casting your own? I just poured the powder and followed with the Minnie. Educate me please.

What is the baseline of "not that well"? Were you shooting from a rest, or standing, and at what distance?

Were the Minies hard to load, or did they drop down easily?

We'll need more info