Shooting Sharps bullets in a Hawken rifle

[Sandpounder3/7]

Hello all. I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this but wonder how one may go about it. I've been considering paper cartridges for ease of loading at the range and in the field for my .54 Hawken rifle, as well as my .45 Kentucky, and have bounced between making Pritchett style cartridges such as used for the Enfield's, simple powder charge only with a loading block (BRB only loads), or other designs. In searching for .54 caliber paper cartridges I came across the .54 Sharps paper cartridges. For those who don't know they very much resemble oversized cap and ball revolver paper cartridges, and I wonder if such a design would work in a hawken. I see no reason why not, but that's what asking more experienced shooters is for. I have cigarette rolling paper but am considering buying nitrated paper for any cartridges that may be stuffed down whole. If historical examples exist I would love to learn of them, but I am not as concerned with historical accuracy so much as efficiency and ease of use. The prior two are not always mutually exclusive though. I look forward to learning from your experience and opinions.

 

[dave951]

Your real problem here is Sharps bullets are over size relative to the bore because it's designed as a breech loading system. Your Hawken is a muzzleloader and as such, you'd have to pound the bullets down the barrel.

So short answer, it won't work

 

[Sandpounder3/7]

Your real problem here is Sharps bullets are over size relative to the bore because it's designed as a breech loading system. Your Hawken is a muzzleloader and as such, you'd have to pound the bullets down the barrel.

So short answer, it won't work

I had wondered about the original sharps bullets for it. What do you think of using something like a minie ball or similar conical with the paper cartridge attached similarly to the sharps?

 

[dave951]

I had wondered about the original sharps bullets for it. What do you think of using something like a minie ball or similar conical with the paper cartridge attached similarly to the sharps?

That might work. Try it.

 

[rmark]

The Lee 533-410 modern minie patched with two wraps .0015 paper would probably be the least expensive way to make a sort of pritchett paper patched .54 bullet without buying a custom mold. Seth Cole 55y paper is about .0015 I think. I don't know how well this idea would work.

I'd be wary of making a sharps type cartridge to load from the muzzle, the powder bag might wedge against the barrel and jam the bullet part way down the bore.

 

[andy52]

I guess my first thought would be why? A .54 cal. Hawken is capable of taking down almost anything in North America, so how would you improve on that?

 

[Sandpounder3/7]

I guess my first thought would be why? A .54 cal. Hawken is capable of taking down almost anything in North America, so how would you improve on that?

By loading it faster

 

[azmntman]

or just use one of the many conicals availabe?

 

[George Andrix01]

Long range (1,000 yard) muzzleloader shooters shoot bore diameter ( or very slightly smaller) bullets, not groove diameter. Lee sizing dies can be ordered in any diameter you want, and they are not expensive.

 

[Phil Coffins]

The Sharps uses shallow rifling a Hawken type is deep rifling. Speed isn’t an issue if you take time to place the shot well the first time. Muzzle loading is a different sport and it’s easier to adapt to to it then re-engineering the process that already works.

 

[Widows Son]

I’d be wary if your rifle has a drum and nipple. If it has a moulded “snail” for the nipple maybe it would be ok. The conical bullet weighs far more than a patched round ball does and could build up high breech pressures

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hello all. I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this but wonder how one may go about it. I've been considering paper cartridges for ease of loading at the range and in the field for my .54 Hawken rifle, as well as my .45 Kentucky, and have bounced between making Pritchett style cartridges such as used for the Enfield's, simple powder charge only with a loading block (BRB only loads), or other designs. In searching for .54 caliber paper cartridges I came across the .54 Sharps paper cartridges. For those who don't know they very much resemble oversized cap and ball revolver paper cartridges, and I wonder if such a design would work in a hawken. I see no reason why not, but that's what asking more experienced shooters is for. I have cigarette rolling paper but am considering buying nitrated paper for any cartridges that may be stuffed down whole. If historical examples exist I would love to learn of them, but I am not as concerned with historical accuracy so much as efficiency and ease of use. The prior two are not always mutually exclusive though. I look forward to learning from your experience and opinions.

You need to know diameters of the bullet, the paper wrapped bullet, the land-to-land diameter of the barrel and the groove depth. I am guessing that you are talking of a factory "Hawken" such as a T/C, CVA, Traditions or similar modern rifle. These will likely have a shallow groove. For your paper wrapped cartridge to be easy to load, the diameter of the paper wrapped cartridge should be equal or 0.001 less than the land-to-land diameter of the barrel. Any cartridge approaching the groove diameter will be hard to load, especially after a few shots have been fired to build up a layer of fouling.

A short bullet, not much longer than the diameter of a round ball will work.

Look up some of the threads on paper patched bullets. I think the Sharp's cartridge could work if the diameter of the patched bullet with lubricant is the same as the diameter of the land-to-land. Do pay attention to the concerns of the previous posters as they are valid.

 

[Sandpounder3/7]

You need to know diameters of the bullet, the paper wrapped bullet, the land-to-land diameter of the barrel and the groove depth. I am guessing that you are talking of a factory "Hawken" such as a T/C, CVA, Traditions or similar modern rifle. These will likely have a shallow groove. For your paper wrapped cartridge to be easy to load, the diameter of the paper wrapped cartridge should be equal or 0.001 less than the land-to-land diameter of the barrel. Any cartridge approaching the groove diameter will be hard to load, especially after a few shots have been fired to build up a layer of fouling.

A short bullet, not much longer than the diameter of a round ball will work.

Look up some of the threads on paper patched bullets. I think the Sharp's cartridge could work if the diameter of the patched bullet with lubricant is the same as the diameter of the land-to-land. Do pay attention to the concerns of the previous posters as they are valid.

Its an Investarms Cabelas hawken. I will try to keep all posits in mind as I go about developing this. I mainly want to get more shooting time in at the range as I have very few occasions to get to the range and need to maximize my time spent there, so loading more than shooting would not help me very much. The sharps cartridge just made me wonder if it was possibly a speedy way to load. Kind of an exercise in alternate history possibilities? I like to tinker as much as the next muzzleloader-er so am just experimenting. I expect I'll end up back at tried and true methods of conventional loading but see no reason not to try something new as well.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Sandpounder3/7, trying different loads is what load development is all about. Finding ways to maximize your productive time at the range is good thinking. In a rifle, I would load a paper cartridge the same way I load a paper cartridge in my King's Musket. I would tear the tail off the cartridge, pour the powder and stuff the paper wrapped cartridge, using the now empty paper as a wad and wrap of the bullet as a patch. Lubricate the bullet end to help hold the bullet in the barrel and grease the bore on firing. You should be good to go.

 

[Sandpounder3/7]

@Sandpounder3/7, trying different loads is what load development is all about. Finding ways to maximize your productive time at the range is good thinking. In a rifle, I would load a paper cartridge the same way I load a paper cartridge in my King's Musket. I would tear the tail off the cartridge, pour the powder and stuff the paper wrapped cartridge, using the now empty paper as a wad and wrap of the bullet as a patch. Lubricate the bullet end to help hold the bullet in the barrel and grease the bore on firing. You should be good to go.

Thanks very much! I’ll give it a shot! (Pun intended?)

 

[stikshooter]

I’d be wary if your rifle has a drum and nipple. If it has a moulded “snail” for the nipple maybe it would be ok. The conical bullet weighs far more than a patched round ball does and could build up high breech pressures

Not an issue ,my long range TC Renegade that folks here have seen shoots a 530 gr Eliptical from BACO over 81 gr of OE 1 1/2 f 9 Lb onion skin from again BACO /and lately a Pedersoli Silhouette 45/70 paper patched 444 slik with 7lb Seth Cole same load .The renegade once a week every Friday for at least 3 yrs with again a BACO Platinum nipple (mandatory) Both use 17 twist barrels 1 is a Rice barrel /and the other a custom Lee Shaver/Ed