Shooting without Swabbing
- Thread starter Bob J
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I neglected to mention that my patches are virtually dripping with lube, I shake out excess. If I'm competing in an event where you take it in turns to shoot at a gong for example, I only short-start the ball, then when I get to the firing line I push the ball all the way down on the powder (I carry my loading rod in my other hand, so it's kinda hard to forget that the ball is not loaded all the way). I do this so the patch does not overly wet the powder as this can also be detrimental to accuracy; yes I learnt the hard way!!! :curse:
Although I do not hunt (you guys have no idea how difficult it is to hunt in my part of Aus, and you ALL make it sound so easy in the US!!! :curse
, it makes sense to me to use a grease type lube for hunting so that the powder is not overly wetted(?) by a wet patch. :imo: :results:Jim :yakyak:
Guest
I know I would forget to ram the ball home one time too many. I just know I would.
Hey, no probs!
1 - Push the ball down so it is a couple of inches away from the powder.
2 - Keep loading rod in barrel resting on ball.
3 - Hold firearm vertically.
4 - Go to firing line.
5 - Ram ball all the way.
6 - Remove ramrod.
7 - Prime.
8 - BANG.
9 - 10X.
11 - :crackup:
12 - Jim.
13 - :redthumb:.
Guest
Roundball is absolutely right, that with the combination Dutch uses, Dutch might get buildup of fouling and hardening of the buildup & therefore have to swab to maintain accuracy. Our accuracy remains as good as his without that tedius job that also threatens to cause misfires due to dampness or clogging of the vent or nipple flash hole. This was from wet fouling pushed there by the cleaning patch. Oh, I tried cleaning between shots, as some of Musket Blasts magazine writers maintained that cleaning between shots was necessary for good accuracy. It took no time at all to prove that was pure BS, at least with our rifles and sights, with us shooting. I did find that ignition was poorer with the cap lock at that time. I also noted that velocity variations (SD) from low to high extremes about doubled, tripled and quadrupled, depending on the load, giving vertically strung groups. We found 2F gave less trouble than 3F in the .50's possibly due to more even burning without spikes in pressure. It also seems, for us, to foul less than 3F, expactly opposite of what we were reading. So be it, almost everything else we read didn't pan out either.
: Everyone, it seemed, was on a learning streak in those days. A lot of what was written was sraight BS and old wives tales like "you cannot overload a ML rifle or shotgun" Al unburnt powder is just pushed out. Straight BS but still repeated today - incredible as THAT may seem. Tests have proven that pressures continue to build, just as they do in modern rifles with modern powders- just as common horse-sense would dictate.
: When we load our rifle's second, third or 50th shot, the barrel gets cleaned by the loading process itself & accuracy is better IF WE DON'T clean or swab. There is no fouling left to accumulate - it is pushed down on top of the powder, between it and the ball. I dare-say it acts sort of like a thin layer of insulation, helping to protect the patch from the flame and pressure.
: I have shot a 2" offhand group at 50 yds. with the .69 rifle, using the same patch for each shot of the string, over and over again. A spotter & previous nonbeliever, watched for the patch and retrieved it for each loading. It got darker and darker, but never cut or burned, except for the oouter edges. I used 82gr. 3F for each shot, a mild descent velocity close-range target load for that rifle. It gave 1,200fps and shot well to about 80 yds. For hunting charges, or shooting 100yds and beyond,I used 2F to keep pressures down & a lot more of it, giving over 1,500fps. with the top load for Moose. The 484gr. ball really worked well on those large ungulates. Loading such a tight patched ball, using the 4-shot loading block, took 8 seconds, caped and ready to shoot again. A short 30" barrel and tapered 9/16" high quality hickory rod helps amazingly in this.
: Were we to run a wet patch down the bore AFTER loading, virtually no fouling would come out - just a bit of colour on the patch from the very corners of the rifling- perhaps. The degree of difficulty of loading NEVER gets harder. We shoot combos that are quite snug, but there-in lies the secret of shooting without swabbing. A short starter is required to start then push the ball/patch some 5" or 6" down the bore before finishing loading with the ramrod.
: When we first started shooting BP, we read The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts. He quoted an old time shooter as saying that the third shot was as accurate as the second and so forth and so on as each successive loading cleaned the fouling of the previous shot & that one should be able to shoot all day without having to swab the bore. He stated that no frontiersman could afford the time to clean his rifle between shots, let alone have to and even then, they needed to carry extra shots in the form of handguns in order to survive.
: That was good enough for us, so we learned to do just as he stated, and refused to believe what the modern 'experts' said. We found that testing their principles was the correct way, and that what Ned wrote was correct. We joined the National Association of Primitive Riflemen (NAPR) and therein learned a great deal and that we were pretty much on the correct page from day 1.
: Sorry this is so long - I thought it relevent.
: Everyone, it seemed, was on a learning streak in those days. A lot of what was written was sraight BS and old wives tales like "you cannot overload a ML rifle or shotgun" Al unburnt powder is just pushed out. Straight BS but still repeated today - incredible as THAT may seem. Tests have proven that pressures continue to build, just as they do in modern rifles with modern powders- just as common horse-sense would dictate.
: When we load our rifle's second, third or 50th shot, the barrel gets cleaned by the loading process itself & accuracy is better IF WE DON'T clean or swab. There is no fouling left to accumulate - it is pushed down on top of the powder, between it and the ball. I dare-say it acts sort of like a thin layer of insulation, helping to protect the patch from the flame and pressure.
: I have shot a 2" offhand group at 50 yds. with the .69 rifle, using the same patch for each shot of the string, over and over again. A spotter & previous nonbeliever, watched for the patch and retrieved it for each loading. It got darker and darker, but never cut or burned, except for the oouter edges. I used 82gr. 3F for each shot, a mild descent velocity close-range target load for that rifle. It gave 1,200fps and shot well to about 80 yds. For hunting charges, or shooting 100yds and beyond,I used 2F to keep pressures down & a lot more of it, giving over 1,500fps. with the top load for Moose. The 484gr. ball really worked well on those large ungulates. Loading such a tight patched ball, using the 4-shot loading block, took 8 seconds, caped and ready to shoot again. A short 30" barrel and tapered 9/16" high quality hickory rod helps amazingly in this.
: Were we to run a wet patch down the bore AFTER loading, virtually no fouling would come out - just a bit of colour on the patch from the very corners of the rifling- perhaps. The degree of difficulty of loading NEVER gets harder. We shoot combos that are quite snug, but there-in lies the secret of shooting without swabbing. A short starter is required to start then push the ball/patch some 5" or 6" down the bore before finishing loading with the ramrod.
: When we first started shooting BP, we read The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts. He quoted an old time shooter as saying that the third shot was as accurate as the second and so forth and so on as each successive loading cleaned the fouling of the previous shot & that one should be able to shoot all day without having to swab the bore. He stated that no frontiersman could afford the time to clean his rifle between shots, let alone have to and even then, they needed to carry extra shots in the form of handguns in order to survive.
: That was good enough for us, so we learned to do just as he stated, and refused to believe what the modern 'experts' said. We found that testing their principles was the correct way, and that what Ned wrote was correct. We joined the National Association of Primitive Riflemen (NAPR) and therein learned a great deal and that we were pretty much on the correct page from day 1.
: Sorry this is so long - I thought it relevent.
Okay, sounds great & I'd like to get it to work for me. What if I am using the ox-yoke wonder-lube patches and still have trouble loading after 4-5 shots? I am using my CVA mountain rifle in .50 cal with 70 gr ffg. .490 ball w/.018 patches. I have a couple hundred balls through the barrel. Is my patch/ball combo not tight enough/too tight? My load too hot/not hot enough? My barrel not broke in? What do you think?
Sounds like a pretty conventional loading. Packing up after five shots is about normal. I have no experience with pre-lubed patches so I can't say how they compare. If you want more "freedom" you can try thinner patches or a different lube.
70grns of FFg in a .50cal isn't much more than a 50-60grn target load...compared to a 100/110/120grn hunting load so you should easily be able to run entire range session s with that load and not have to wipe between shots...unless you're using some of the old bad batches of extremely dirty Elephant powder...with something like Goex it's a cake-walk...can even do that using Pyrodex/RS.
Don't know what your bore cleaning / lubing regimen is but cleaning/scrubbing the bore with steaming hot soapy water and lubing with natural lube 1000 is part of what I do, in addition to using natural lubed patches, and IMO it all works together to produce the results.
Guest
Your load is a light load and hsould load easily all day. I've no real experience with pre-lubed, except that when I tried them, I also spit on them to increase the lube quantity. I don't think there is enough lubricant on them to effectively soften the all of the fouling and that is why it builds up.
: Another possible reason, is the .018" pre-cut, pre-lubed with Bore Butter, OxYoke patches I bought average .014" on my calipers. They are too thin. Perhaps your's are the same. Either poor quality control, or misplaced in the wrong package. One package of them measures .013" while the other .015". With both, squeezing the calipers as I do with my denim material, they both run .012". This is not suitable for the .490 ball, at all.
: We ALWAYS use spit for lube when target shooting. One reason is that plain old spit is more accurate & 2/. is easily applied to pre-cut patches or strip patching hung on the strap of the possibles bag.
: Once you get used to using spit, you'll never be short of it. Plain water isn't the same, but can work fairly well in some guns.
: We reserve greases and oils for hunting, and always do a test-shoot to ensure point of impact and accuracy in case there is some modification needed. I have yet to find a lube other than Stumpy's Moose snot that allows unlimited shooting without cleaning.
: Perhaps bore Butter, properly applied, as in enough applied, will work just fine. I know some people use it.
; Real BP fouls more than any of the replacements I've used. These include Pyrodex and Black Mag 3 which seem to produce NO fouling buildup.
: I assume your CVA mountain rifle has 48" rifling that is about .004 to .005" deep per side. That makes it .510 cal at the most to the bottom of the grooves. Your .490 ball with a TRUE .018" patch comes to .526 which gives supposedly .016" compression, or .008" per side. This should be sufficient, however, when both Taylor and I shot the same sort of barrel, shallow rifling, .50 cal, 48" twist, we had to use .020" denim patches with .490" and .495" balls. I think Taylor used the .490" but I referred the .495" as being more accurate than the smaller ball. I would try .495" ball and the same .018 patch & spit on the patch as well, to increase the amount of lube. If they are too hard to start with a short starter, I'd polish the radius of the crown some more, or even slightly funnel the crown into the bore, for about 1/4" on a light taper. With the proper taper at the crown, the ball gets swaged into the rifling, and once level with the muzzle, loads easily as it is now the correct size.
: Another suggestion, is to use a starter with a big knob on the top and 7/16" 6" long shaft. I grasp the starter by the shaft, and use the flattened top to hit the ball down flush with the muzzle in one blow, then reverse the starter and give the knob a smack with my palm to push the ball down about 5" or 6". The ramrod is then used to firmly seat the ball on the powder.
: There are many people who say this destroys accuracy from deforming the ball, but doesn't seem to be the case. Nonexpanded balls recovered after the snow melts, show a slightly flattened nose, but no other deformity and accuracy is great. I've been loading that way for 33 years now and have no problem being in the top 2 or 3 every shoot I attend, so I know the system works.
: It all boils down to using a thick enough patch of the proper material, with spit for target shooting. Save the prelubed patches for hunting where 1 shot is all that's needed, but will still allow loading for 3 or 4 more shots.
: A friend uses prelubed OxYoke with borebutter, .015" with .535" ball in his TC factory barrel. He uses 100gr.(stricken) of RS Pyrodex and the only hard loading round is the first one down a dry barrel as after that they are easy to load - go figure. Oh yes, that load killed a bull moose from 170 yds. shot taken across a logging slash. The moose ran 40yd. and dropped dead. I included this for those who think slugs are required to kill large game.
: A .50 will do that same thing to 120yds. no problem - on moose or elk.
: Another possible reason, is the .018" pre-cut, pre-lubed with Bore Butter, OxYoke patches I bought average .014" on my calipers. They are too thin. Perhaps your's are the same. Either poor quality control, or misplaced in the wrong package. One package of them measures .013" while the other .015". With both, squeezing the calipers as I do with my denim material, they both run .012". This is not suitable for the .490 ball, at all.
: We ALWAYS use spit for lube when target shooting. One reason is that plain old spit is more accurate & 2/. is easily applied to pre-cut patches or strip patching hung on the strap of the possibles bag.
: Once you get used to using spit, you'll never be short of it. Plain water isn't the same, but can work fairly well in some guns.
: We reserve greases and oils for hunting, and always do a test-shoot to ensure point of impact and accuracy in case there is some modification needed. I have yet to find a lube other than Stumpy's Moose snot that allows unlimited shooting without cleaning.
: Perhaps bore Butter, properly applied, as in enough applied, will work just fine. I know some people use it.
; Real BP fouls more than any of the replacements I've used. These include Pyrodex and Black Mag 3 which seem to produce NO fouling buildup.
: I assume your CVA mountain rifle has 48" rifling that is about .004 to .005" deep per side. That makes it .510 cal at the most to the bottom of the grooves. Your .490 ball with a TRUE .018" patch comes to .526 which gives supposedly .016" compression, or .008" per side. This should be sufficient, however, when both Taylor and I shot the same sort of barrel, shallow rifling, .50 cal, 48" twist, we had to use .020" denim patches with .490" and .495" balls. I think Taylor used the .490" but I referred the .495" as being more accurate than the smaller ball. I would try .495" ball and the same .018 patch & spit on the patch as well, to increase the amount of lube. If they are too hard to start with a short starter, I'd polish the radius of the crown some more, or even slightly funnel the crown into the bore, for about 1/4" on a light taper. With the proper taper at the crown, the ball gets swaged into the rifling, and once level with the muzzle, loads easily as it is now the correct size.
: Another suggestion, is to use a starter with a big knob on the top and 7/16" 6" long shaft. I grasp the starter by the shaft, and use the flattened top to hit the ball down flush with the muzzle in one blow, then reverse the starter and give the knob a smack with my palm to push the ball down about 5" or 6". The ramrod is then used to firmly seat the ball on the powder.
: There are many people who say this destroys accuracy from deforming the ball, but doesn't seem to be the case. Nonexpanded balls recovered after the snow melts, show a slightly flattened nose, but no other deformity and accuracy is great. I've been loading that way for 33 years now and have no problem being in the top 2 or 3 every shoot I attend, so I know the system works.
: It all boils down to using a thick enough patch of the proper material, with spit for target shooting. Save the prelubed patches for hunting where 1 shot is all that's needed, but will still allow loading for 3 or 4 more shots.
: A friend uses prelubed OxYoke with borebutter, .015" with .535" ball in his TC factory barrel. He uses 100gr.(stricken) of RS Pyrodex and the only hard loading round is the first one down a dry barrel as after that they are easy to load - go figure. Oh yes, that load killed a bull moose from 170 yds. shot taken across a logging slash. The moose ran 40yd. and dropped dead. I included this for those who think slugs are required to kill large game.
: A .50 will do that same thing to 120yds. no problem - on moose or elk.
