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Short barrels?

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doublesnider

36 Cal.
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Aug 24, 2007
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Hi,
I would like to know how much velocity you loose as you shorten a muzzleloadier.
Im thinking of making a short barreled underhammer rifle for my son with a 14" to 20".
Any of you have chrono a short barreled .50.?

Thanks
Martin :confused: :grin:
 
Martin, I can not help you with chronograph results. What I do know is I have killed several deer with a 50 caliber T/C White Mountain Carbine. It has a 21 inch tube of 50 caliber. This may help you if you are building a hunting rifle. Good luck!
 
Don't kid yourself. Short barrels give up a lot of velocity. If you only expect to shoot a deer out to 50 yards Maximum, you can get by with a 20 inch barrel. If you think you can shoot deer out at 100 yds, or more with the gun, using open sights, You had better do some penetration testing at those distances to see just how much oomph you have left.

I have no doubt that an ACCURATELY placed shot at 100 yds. on a deer, using a short barreled gun, will kill the animal. But, your tracking skills had better be very good, as you can't expect it to drop in its tracks, short of a heart shot. The problems with short barreled guns is Making that Accurately placed shot. Some try to reduce the caliber of such barrels, so that they can get more velocity. But, lighter PRBs are more subject to winds, so successful hits depends on how windy it is the day you hunt. There are State Laws, and game code regulations that often limit the minimum size ball that can be shot, at deer, and those limits have to be kept in mind.

I have never understood the desire for a short barreled rifle. I can see it if you are handicapped, or have trouble walking very far with much weight because of heart problems, or Arthritis, or have damage to your shoulders and can't shoot anything that recoils a lot, much less a heavy gun you can't easily lift to your shoulder.

But, Black Powder requires much more barrel length to BURN COMPLETELY than do smokeless powers. Beyond burning the powder, barrel harmonics are very touchy on short barreled guns, so that getting accuracy generally requires a barrel be much thicker than normal. That added weight often defeats the attractiveness of short barreled guns for those people who want a light weight gun to carry into the field.

The most common reason people buy "short barreled " rifles- modern, or traditional BP, is so that the gun won't "hang up" on brush when they are " Brush Bustin' ". The Gun writers never explain WHY They are "Brush Bustin' ".

My personal experience, alone, and with others on deer drives, is its the best way to NEVER SEE a deer, unless you are a "blocker" on a deer drive, and located at least 100 yds ahead of the drivers! :rotf: :surrender: What I have learned about hunting deer in wooded cover, is that there are game trails, and runs, all over the woods, and those used by deer are often large enough to allow my 300 lb. body to quietly move through brush on these trails, so that there is NO NEED to BUST BRUSH. And, I carry my 39" Barreled Flintlock right down those same trails, and right through the woods without it hanging up at all.

Oh, I can't swing that gun in heavy cover to shoot a running deer? I DON'T take shots in heavy cover at running deer. That is the very best way I know to put holes in tree trunks, intended or not. Actually hitting a deer is just LUCK. And where you hit that animal is anyone's guess.

I was a deer checker for a couple of years down at Old Valmeyer, Illinois, and saw plenty of deer brought in all shot up, with holes in legs, or legs shot off, along with holes from head to tail. One deer was a fawn, and barely dressed out at about 30 pounds. The shooter told me that his family was lined along a ravine, and they all shot at some running deer as they went by. This fawn was on the off-side of its mother, who they were trying to kill. They apparently shot under her, and hit this fawn. They found no blood from the mother, but this fawn dropped shortly after he fired his shot at the Doe. He decided the ETHICAL thing to do was to put his tag on the fawn and end his hunting for the year. He remembered when the first modern deer season began in Illinois back in the 50s, and he was NOT going to leave the fawn there to go to waste.

That is what shooting at running deer gets you, if people will simply admit the truth. We all read, and hear about the lucky shots, that hit running deer at long distances, right through the spine or heart. The shooter never tells where his sights were aimed when the shot went off, however.

So, I don't find this excuse much justification for using a short barreled gun.

IF you hunt from a treestand, and IF you know that the range of any shot you will have on a deer will be 50 yards or less( a friend has no more than a 35 yard shot from his stand), and IF you have some physical limitation that dictates using a short barreled, lighter weight rifle, THEN, you can justify hunting with a truly short barreled rifle.

Others opinions will vary. :shocked2: :hmm:
 
Thank for your answers.
I have not phisical limitations but my son is only 9 years old and light build, so he needs a light short rifle.
He hunt with a short Cadet .22L.R.
Martin
 
I have a 26" barrel on my .50cal T/C. I'm concidering getting a barrel made by GreenMountain Barrels. I'd like to get it made 28"-30" with a slower twist.Or I'll just wait and buy a new flintlock with a 36"barrel next year.
 
I have a 24" barreled Mowry Georgia tree gun that will place shots in the black at 100 yds with the same loads as a 32" barreled rifle...
I would figure that if I was loosing that much velocity the P.O.I would be lower...?
 
No chrono results but I have serious doubts shortening the barrel down to 20" or so will have detrimental effect on accuracy or power for deer. But I will say from firsthand experiences that shorter barrels get really LOUD. I can't say if that will be a factor for him or not, but it's there.

Speaking for my wife, balance is a big issue with muzzleloaders. Much barrel-heavy feel at all, and she starts whining. If the balance point is back between her hands, she shoots well and has no complaints about "too heavy," no matter what the gun weighs.
 
Martin,
I have a full stock .50 carbine with a 20" barrel. I don't have any chrony results but can tell you that with a 75 gr charge of 3F Goex I have killed deer in Michigan and Ohio. It is not a long range rifle but out to 75 yards, if tou do your part, it will do fine. For my grandson I built an underhammer rifle in .36 with a 24" swamped barrel, to get it light. As he grew it was a simple matter to change the barrel to a larger caliber and longer dimension. I also made a 20 ga trap barrel which he interchanges with the rifle barrel.
Mark
 
If you read the following link, it MIGHT help. The tests were done with GM carbine barrels with a fast 1-28" twist and bullets so I don't know how that would translate to PRB and slow twist barrels. The test concluded that the velocity lost was ~ 13.5 fps per inch of barrel lost and only about .5" difference of POI at 100 yds. The difference between a 28" and a 20" barrel was ~ 108 fps. Here is the test link: http://www.blackpowderjournal.com/archives/vol2no4/articles/BPJ24-5.htm
 
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It's difficult to extrapolate information from a test of bullets and Pyrodex to patched ball and blackpowder. Since every rifle is different it really would be guesswork.

A nice light rifle in .45 or .50 caliber can be built in the weight range of the old T/C Seneca or about 6 and 1/2 pounds and still carry a barrel of reasonable length. I have a seven pound .45 caliber rifle with a 43" barrel for example. Jim Chamber's L'il Feller rifle would be the best choice in this situation--a quality piece that is handsome and will have great resale value. Checking state laws for barrel length requirements is a good idea in any case.
 
I have a TC PA Hunter rifle with a 21" 1/66 twist barrel that I use 80 grains of Goex 2f powder with a .020 blue jean patch,criso lube and .495 Hornady ball. It will shoot one ragged hole all day long at 60 yards. I have taken 2 deer with the rifle and no it's not a long range rifle but within 60 yards it will do the job just fine. It probably does lose 100-120 fps. over my 32" barrel but it's every bit as accurate. For a youngster I think it would be a great rifle to start with.

If one were to use Swiss 3f in the bore you would probably get more fps. than I get with the longer bore and Goex 2f. My rifle just likes the Goex 2f; I see no need for more power.
 
I'm not sure what forum I copied this from, but I copied it for my own informaion and study. However, it pertains to the question here as concerns the velocity loss in shortened barrels. This was originally posted by "Dale H.".

Unfortunately, due to hidden commands, it doesn't want to fit in this space, so I'll have to modify it slightly.

The copy won't fit here, so the numbers listed are in the following order:
1)Barrel length in inches.
2)Average muzzle velocity in fps.
3)Extreme spread between shots in fps.


Velocity vs. barrel length-tests by the Rice boys

First, he started with a 44" barrel, 50 caliber, 1:66 twist, .490 ball, .015 pillow ticking patch lubed with bore butter. He used a percussion lock and CCI #11 mag caps. Powder charge was 80 grs 2F Goex, and the chronograph was set up 15' from the muzzle.

Results for four shots at each barrel length from 44" to 30" in 2" increments:

44" 1601fps 42fps

42" 1583fps 28fps

40" 1573fps 21fps

38" 1555fps 5fps

36" 1512fps 12fps

34" 1531fps 50fps

32" 1501fps 23fps

30" 1471fps 6fps

Note that the velocity for the 36" length appears to be low, compared to 38" and 34".

Dale H


Also note that the loss of 14 inches of barrel resulted in a loss of only 130 fps in muzzle velocity.

I hope this is helpful... :wink:


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
 
Ron T, thanks for posting that info. I knew I had seen similar tests done, but had no idea where or when I had seen them.
 
Years ago, Dixie Gunworks tested a .40 caliber barrel with different DuPont 3Fg powder loads and the effects of shortening it at these various powder loads.

The information is published in the back of the Dixie catalogs.

Of course each gun is different and I'm sure each caliber will react differently as well but as a generalization it is interesting to look at.

For instance, with a 47 grain powder load the velocity at 36 inches was 1735 fps. Shortening the barrel to 20 inches dropped the velocity to 1509 for a 13% loss.

The same lengths with a 84 grain powder load was 2189 fps at 36 inches and 1863 fps at 20 inches for a loss of 15%.
 
:hmm: Well, german hunting laws deal with joule-minimums for larger game.
You can get more joule by increasing the bullet weight or the speed of it.
You take the speed out with a shorter barrel as others already mentioned...
If you take a look at the european jaeger-rifles you´ll see that they were aware of that - usually big calibers.

So far. The other thing - and to me more important - is that a shorter barrel leads to less distance between front an rear sight. :shocked2: A source for mistakes in aiming.
But we want our young hunter to have success and fun, don´t we? :wink: :grin:

I would consider a barrel as long as he´s able to manage loading it - and try to find a swamped barrel. Should help to handle it better for shooting. :thumbsup:
 
The Lyman BP Handbook lists .50 caliber loads with .490" ball and just to pick a number let's say 80 grains of 2f Goex. The 32" barrel gives 1694 fps while a 24" barrel gives 1538 fps. That's a loss of 156 fps at the muzzle but a round ball probably looses that much in traveling the first 10 yards anyhow. I'd not worry about it.
The wife shoots a .50 caliber carbine with 24" barrel and she shoots only 50 grains of 3f because she finds heavier loads uncomfortable. I had occasion to take a doe with it at about 50 yards, a straight on facing shot. The deer stood stock still for a couple of seconds, then toppled over sideways, stiff legged like a lawn ornament and was giving it's last breath when I walked up to it. The Hornady swaged lead ball had entered at the base of the throat and I found it under the skin of the right ham, having penetrated 90% of the length of a large doe, it had not expanded nor deformed at all, just a few scratches on the front. It had hit no bones. A short barreled .50 caliber with 50 grains of 3f will kill if well placed.
If the short sight radius is a concern, just go to a rear peep sight, a much better sight arrangement anyhow.
 
You're making a 4-5 lb gun for a 9 yr old. If you put much more than 30 or 40 grs of powder behind that .50 you're going leave yourself open for child abuse charges. What the barrel is capable of & what it can do under these circumstances is 2 different things. The most important thing is that the boy has fun shooting. Even these loads would kill a deer sized animal at 20 or 30 yds. Which might be realistic yardage in this case. Only time will tell how accurate your boy can shoot this setup. If you handed this rifle to a national quality shooter he would be limited as to what he could do with it.

Paul
 
MartinG said:
Thank for your answers.
I have not phisical limitations but my son is only 9 years old and light build, so he needs a light short rifle.
He hunt with a short Cadet .22L.R.
Martin


My youngest two Grandsons (out of 13 Grandkids) are 9 years old and both are "lightly built" whereas their fathers (my sons) are powerfully built as will probably be my Grandsons when they mature.

I don't believe I'd attempt to outfit them with a .50 caliber muzzle-loader... or a .45 or even a .40 caliber ML, depending on the State's minimum caliber-size requirements for deer hunting because I'd be afraid that the load sufficient to kill a deer would also be sufficient to hurt the boys' shoulders and cause them to start flinching at their early age.

Now... add a "lighter" weight rifle and the problem is compounded even more. :(

I know it's difficult... but Dads have to do the "thinking" and "deciding" for their youngesters... and that often makes it difficult to "wait" until they're OLD ENOUGH and BIG ENOUGH to properly handle a rifle's recoil.

Martin... I'd sincerely suggest you take your son along with you when you go hunting (as I did with my two sons at that age), but that you do all the shooting until the boy gets big enough to handle a .50 caliber ML or centerfire rifle without creating a possible problem for the boy.

There's a great pride in having one's son or daughter begin to hunt... and an even greater pride in having them get their first "kill", but we shouldn't allow that "pride" to blind us to the REALITY that, frankly, the vast majority of 9 year olds are not truly capable of handling the recoil of a deer-killing load in either a muzzle-loader or a center-fire rifle at that tender age.

Jus' my 2¢... :v


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
 
No, Scalper, you wouldn't see the POI shift as the sights on the short barreled gun are regulated to make up for the difference. Chrono is the best way. Could shoot 5 shot group with each gun at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards and see the POI drop.

I'll see if I can find the article where someone started with a 42" barrel and chronoed 5 shots then cut off 1" and chronoed another 5 shots etc to 20". As I recall, dropped every inch but not much difference till about 36" and then another noticable drop around 28".

TC
 
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