Short Land Pattern Brown Bess Flintlock Musket

[Paul-in-PA]

Patience, bargains come up every now and then that will not break the bank. You question has three requirements:

1. "do want one that works and goes "bang" when I pull the trigger"
2. Do not want to "break the bank", "spending limit of $700 for ANY firearm".
3. Want a "GOOD 2nd model Brown Bess"

You bring skills in being able to build your own muzzleloader.

I have owned Navy Arms - Dixie - Pedersoli - Japanese Besses, over the years; I have seen and handled, but never fired, Loyalist Arms - Heritage - Middlesex Indian Guns and have been unimpressed with their quality. The locks in particular do not look historically accurate, nor does the metallurgy impress me. But that being said, I have had duds made by Pedersoli or Miroku, it is either a poorly hardened frizen or a touch hole not properly placed (too low in the pan) that I had to repair.

There are two important components that you want, a good lock and a proofed barrel. So you are kind of stock with a Pedersoli or Miroku lock or a quality round faced English style lock to make a "Committee of Safety" Musket. Spare parts availability to make repairs is important. Which in my mind leave out the Indian made guns. They do break over time.

Barrel Quality, a proofed barrel is important to me. I watch a reenactor tipple - quadruple or maybe event load five charges into the ground and to his musket before it fired. Knocked him to the ground and maybe broke his nose. His stupidity, but I am not one for holding pipe bombs.

The price point of $700 dollars these days is a hard target to hit. You can find some parts guns or poorly used reenactor pieces that can be brought back to life. But these will cost around your limit not counting the repair parts and your time and labor to restore. But it is doable. Normal issues I have seen on these are, broken lock parts, possible broken stock, rust, and pitting/rush in the bore. You can hone out the barrel to take some of the pitting out, you can normally get the parts to fix a Perersoli or Miroku with some fitting. Replacement stocks are available from Dunlap Woodcrafts ( Dunlap Woodcrafts – Wood our specialty ).

In the reenacting world I have seen used Pedersoli or Miroku Brown Bess creep north of $1,000 these days. Sorry.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’d recommend getting a used brown bess by Pedersoli or Miroku, there are many of these in the secondary market and in auctions, go to a gun show and bring cash. Paul Ackerman is a supplier, as is Log Cabin Shope and Lodgewood mfg.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have a Bess from each Canadian store, Loyalist and Heritage. Loyalist was more expensive but the lock was tuned and still, 20 years on, works flawlessly*. The Heritage Bess was undrilled, the lock was slow and the spark was weak. I sent it to a smith to see what he could do. Upon return it too functions flawlessly*

* That's if I do my part correctly

Loyalist arms does not tune their locks, i have two of theirs here with me. While its not their fault, one needs to better define what lock tuning actually is.

Polishing the lock with a buffing wheel is not lock tuning.

I have a dog lock here from loyalist arms, every screw in the lock is bent, and thats just the start.

 

[Tumbledown]

Oh yes, they do dodge responsibility. They're worse by going even further to attempt to protect the unknown Indian manufacturer.
.........

Whether they drill the hole or not, none of these Indian gun resellers are actually claiming to sell a fireable product. Save more and buy something from an actual and reputable manufacturer or wait for one on the used market.

Not true. Some do sell them as serviceable product.

 

[manbat]

I'd recommend actually reading the full section, and not just the self-highlighted portions. First, a company saying "you can't make a claim" does not mean that is legally binding. Did you sign a form agreeing to that before buying? I've seen thousands of forms people sign agreeing not to sue a place or company, and just about all are worthless. Even if they wrote, "Doing business with us is consent to the above stipulation", that won't fly.



LD

I read the whole section, but perhaps you misunderstood that the post referenced in my response said that Loyalist Arms does not dodge responsibility. They do, and the highlighted elements of their statement are all that is needed to make that point obvious. "Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used." Maybe determine the suitability for, say, firing? "Buy our product and test it yourself to determine if it's safe". Not dodging responsibility? Right.

"OH and do you know" that I'll take the rest of the absolutely critical and insightful information in your response as it was intended - Moderator determined requirement yelled to educate me on something unrelated that I wasn't even discussing. Thanks for the education and I'll keep it in mind every time I get a PM to give money.

 

[FlinterNick]

I read the whole section, but perhaps you misunderstood that the post referenced in my response said that Loyalist Arms does not dodge responsibility. They do, and the highlighted elements of their statement are all that is needed to make that point obvious. "Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used." Maybe determine the suitability for, say, firing? "Buy our product and test it yourself to determine if it's safe". Not dodging responsibility? Right.

"OH and do you know" that I'll take the rest of the absolutely critical and insightful information in your response as it was intended - Moderator determined requirement yelled to educate me on something unrelated that I wasn't even discussing. Thanks for the education and I'll keep it in mind every time I get a PM to give money.

No loyalist arms does not dodge responsibility.

Someone who sells lower quality items can still be responsible for their customer service standards.

With that said, most of the arms I receive for repair are Indian made.

There are better choices if you look around.

 

[sturmkatze]

Barrel Quality, a proofed barrel is important to me. I watch a reenactor tipple - quadruple or maybe event load five charges into the ground and to his musket before it fired. Knocked him to the ground and maybe broke his nose. His stupidity, but I am not one for holding pipe bombs.

American gun companies don’t proof their guns here.

Over charging can happen with any gun. New reenactor or gun owners without training. All the ones that I’ve seen blow up are operator error. Billy Bob’s blow up brand new American or whatever guns because if lack of training it carelessness.

 

[sturmkatze]

"OH and do you know" that I'll take the rest of the absolutely critical and insightful information in your response as it was intended - Moderator determined requirement yelled to educate me on something unrelated that I wasn't even discussing. Thanks for the education and I'll keep it in mind every time I get a PM to give money.

You don’t have to come here. Running a big forum with massive amounts of snarky, know it alls and argumentative experten is is not for the faint of heart. You rapidly stop being polite to many of them. The mods here do a good job. You use them an apology.

 

[FlinterNick]

American gun companies don’t proof their guns here.

Over charging can happen with any gun. New reenactor or gun owners without training. All the ones that I’ve seen blow up are aperture error. Billy Bob’s blow up brand new American or whatever guns because if lack of training it carelessness.

True, but the barrels do lack quality, there’s no question about it.

Give Hoyt, and Rice a call, they turn them away, wont inspect the or repair them for liability.

 

[ZUG]

Thank you all for your inputs and recommendations. I will keep my eyes open and make an informative choice based on my needs and bankroll. I do hope that no one has been wounded during this topic as I have read many heated conversations here. Again, thank you all

 

[springfield art]

Also, Veteran Arms and Military Heritage; shop around! if you just want something to use casually, not 're-enacting', etc., you should be good with such offerings.

 

[ArtyGunner]

Loyalist arms does not tune their locks, i have two of theirs here with me. While its not their fault, one needs to better define what lock tuning actually is.

Polishing the lock with a buffing wheel is not lock tuning.

I have a dog lock here from loyalist arms, every screw in the lock is bent, and thats just the start.

I bought mine in 2003 so things may have changed since then, sadly.

 

[tenngun]

Patience, bargains come up every now and then that will not break the bank. You question has three requirements:

1. "do want one that works and goes "bang" when I pull the trigger"
2. Do not want to "break the bank", "spending limit of $700 for ANY firearm".
3. Want a "GOOD 2nd model Brown Bess"

You bring skills in being able to build your own muzzleloader.

I have owned Navy Arms - Dixie - Pedersoli - Japanese Besses, over the years; I have seen and handled, but never fired, Loyalist Arms - Heritage - Middlesex Indian Guns and have been unimpressed with their quality. The locks in particular do not look historically accurate, nor does the metallurgy impress me. But that being said, I have had duds made by Pedersoli or Miroku, it is either a poorly hardened frizen or a touch hole not properly placed (too low in the pan) that I had to repair.

There are two important components that you want, a good lock and a proofed barrel. So you are kind of stock with a Pedersoli or Miroku lock or a quality round faced English style lock to make a "Committee of Safety" Musket. Spare parts availability to make repairs is important. Which in my mind leave out the Indian made guns. They do break over time.

Barrel Quality, a proofed barrel is important to me. I watch a reenactor tipple - quadruple or maybe event load five charges into the ground and to his musket before it fired. Knocked him to the ground and maybe broke his nose. His stupidity, but I am not one for holding pipe bombs.

The price point of $700 dollars these days is a hard target to hit. You can find some parts guns or poorly used reenactor pieces that can be brought back to life. But these will cost around your limit not counting the repair parts and your time and labor to restore. But it is doable. Normal issues I have seen on these are, broken lock parts, possible broken stock, rust, and pitting/rush in the bore. You can hone out the barrel to take some of the pitting out, you can normally get the parts to fix a Perersoli or Miroku with some fitting. Replacement stocks are available from Dunlap Woodcrafts ( Dunlap Woodcrafts – Wood our specialty ).

In the reenacting world I have seen used Pedersoli or Miroku Brown Bess creep north of $1,000 these days. Sorry.

Do you know of even one episode where an Indian gun properly loaded and properly cared for failed in use, I worked hard to find an example over a years time and could not find one.

 

[Paul-in-PA]

Do you know of even one episode where an Indian gun properly loaded and properly cared for failed in use, I worked hard to find an example over a years time and could not find one.

I know of no instance of an Indian gun blowing up because of a poor barrel. I have seen flintlocks that fail to ignite the priming charge or main charge due to poorly made locks or touch hole placement. I have owned six or seven Pedersoli or Miroku Brown Bess or Charleville muskets, never an Indian one. I had one Pedersoli, purchased new, that was a dog from the start that Pedersoli replaced because the lock was unhardened, and a Navy Army Miroku that I purchased used that had a touch hole too low in the pan. So a 28% break rate, over 40 years - not great. I have broken mainsprings and had to have frizens rehardened, and finding the parts were easy. What I can say is that I have heard about Indian guns that have no warranty support and almost no replacement part availability. I am not Indian bashing, just stating my observations.

Pedersoli or Miroku have better fit and finish and replacement parts are available. Indian guns do not.

Comes back to requirement #1 - "do want one that works and goes "bang" when I pull the trigger". To those that have functioning Indian guns, that meet their expectations and function reliably. Enjoy.

 

[sturmkatze]

True, but the barrels do lack quality, there’s no question about it.

Give Hoyt, and Rice a call, they turn them away, wont inspect the or repair them for liability.

Okay. Hoyt is crazy busy from what I understand. And why should he? This circular argument will never be solved.

 

[springfield art]

Kind of like riding a motorcycle; we all know it's dangerous, but if you get in an accident, you can't sue the mfgr. unless there's a specific mechanical problem that caused it....I'll take my educated chance with an India gun if desired; you have to go through life without your hand being held; no one is forcing anyone to use a muzzle loader of any kind.