Shortening lock time
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galamb
58 Cal.
Do what they did "back in the day"...
Convert to percussion :rotf:
Convert to percussion :rotf:
Polish all the friction points also the pan, a cone touch hole helps by getting the main charge closer to the prime. Don't over fill your pan. Using 4f in the pan helps. A late style advanced lock with proper geometry will help, if you have a cruddy lock it is almost hopeless.
jamesthomas
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galamb said:
Blasphemy! :blah: :grin: . I make sure the prime does NOT cover the touchhole. To me if you cover the touchole with prime its slower.
frogwalking
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I got old, and found that my reactions now are so slow that I flinch only after the ball has left the barrel. As long as it fires before dinner time, I am ok with it. Seriously, White Lightning flash hole liner and Late Ketland lock. If you put the flash hole in the right place, that is as fast as you need.
Tom Compton
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Again, photographic evidence.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/filled-vent-test-is-it-slower/
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/filled-vent-test-is-it-slower/
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Brokennock
Cannon
Plug your touch hole while loading and don't over fill your pan. The rest is up to your lock.
Following these two things has given me greater reliability with both my flinters than any of my caplocks, and I usually can't tell the difference in ignition time.
Following these two things has given me greater reliability with both my flinters than any of my caplocks, and I usually can't tell the difference in ignition time.
don hepler
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Buy a Siler lock. Be very picky about the size and shape of the flint, and how it's positioned in the jaws. Keep everything clean and free of oil or moisture. A coned, White Lightning touch hole liner, will allow the main charge to be very close to the charge in the pan. 4f in the pan.
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we'll have to agree to disagree on the 4F ... I've tried it and I cannot tell the difference (at the target, where it really matters) between 3F and 4F. while I will concede a theoretical difference, I just don't see it in actual use.
your result may vary, of course. test both and see what works best for you, and don't be too swayed by the squabbling of a cranky old man ...
who??
me?
your result may vary, of course. test both and see what works best for you, and don't be too swayed by the squabbling of a cranky old man ...
who??
me?
Tom Compton
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The difference isn't theoretical, it has been measured just like one can measure a difference in F, FF, and FFF in a main charge. I agree many like yourself don't find the difference consequential or statistically important. Real time Perception of ones eyes and ears are not to be trusted. Pletch's high speed photography shows that.
Others espouse one powder for main as well as prime and offer the perceived convenience of only carrying one powder when afield, I found a medium or larger horn a hinderance for priming and all too often spilled a great deal more than went in the pan when powder in the horn shifts much like ice in a glass of tea.
To each his own and I hope everyone finds what works well enough for them and is then happy with the results. I haven't quit the quest for further improvement in my loads or techniques after over 40 years of muzzleloading. For me, I buy quality barrels and locks, strive for consistency in casting balls and loading, experiment to find the most accurate load combination, etc. I also study what the top shooters use and try learn from them. After all of this, using 4F in the pan just make sense to me. When I run low on 4F I'll get some 7F or Null B as they are a little faster.
TC
Others espouse one powder for main as well as prime and offer the perceived convenience of only carrying one powder when afield, I found a medium or larger horn a hinderance for priming and all too often spilled a great deal more than went in the pan when powder in the horn shifts much like ice in a glass of tea.
To each his own and I hope everyone finds what works well enough for them and is then happy with the results. I haven't quit the quest for further improvement in my loads or techniques after over 40 years of muzzleloading. For me, I buy quality barrels and locks, strive for consistency in casting balls and loading, experiment to find the most accurate load combination, etc. I also study what the top shooters use and try learn from them. After all of this, using 4F in the pan just make sense to me. When I run low on 4F I'll get some 7F or Null B as they are a little faster.
TC
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One of the notions that seems to be evolving in my mind as I gain ever more experience at lock tuning is spark shower direction.
If the main body of sparks come straight down into the pan rather than rear ward and ricocheting off the pan heel before hitting the charge.
The typical flint will engage the frizzen at about 2/3rds of it's height and start shearing off steel but as this occurs the frizzen is lifting and rotating its heel and changing it's angle in relation to the pan.
This is where the spark shower gets re-directed rearward to the heel of the pan.
I think this positioning design of the frizzen heel in relation to the pan center is the primary reason some locks ignition is faster than others.
Observing the spark shower direction from the side is interesting to watch and it seems to me that a direct hit of the hot steel will ignite the pan charge faster than a ricochet spark.
Not sure how to fix a lock that bounces the spark charge off the pan heel though.
An idea I'm chewing on and experimenting with is all.
If the main body of sparks come straight down into the pan rather than rear ward and ricocheting off the pan heel before hitting the charge.
The typical flint will engage the frizzen at about 2/3rds of it's height and start shearing off steel but as this occurs the frizzen is lifting and rotating its heel and changing it's angle in relation to the pan.
This is where the spark shower gets re-directed rearward to the heel of the pan.
I think this positioning design of the frizzen heel in relation to the pan center is the primary reason some locks ignition is faster than others.
Observing the spark shower direction from the side is interesting to watch and it seems to me that a direct hit of the hot steel will ignite the pan charge faster than a ricochet spark.
Not sure how to fix a lock that bounces the spark charge off the pan heel though.
An idea I'm chewing on and experimenting with is all.
Lots of great advise here.
One thing that worked for me, is to just plain learn to hold steady til the boom (after the flash, etc.). You can get them to go off very quickly, but hold through the flash. Lots of practice helps. Just practice a lot and get to know the rifle and how it shoots.
One thing that worked for me, is to just plain learn to hold steady til the boom (after the flash, etc.). You can get them to go off very quickly, but hold through the flash. Lots of practice helps. Just practice a lot and get to know the rifle and how it shoots.
Larry Pletcher
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MBS,
I started timing locks, vents, and priming powders in the 1980's and continue experimenting whenever a new question hits me. The instant flint ignition is often sought but unreachable. Below are a few statements that I have discovered in 30 years of study.
The fastest lock I have ever timed was an original Joseph Manton at .0299 seconds. Most locks fall between .0377 and .0450 seconds.
Null B priming is faster than any other powder currently available.
Priming location in the pan is important. Prime against the barrel is faster than any other pan location.
Internally coned vents are quicker than straight vent holes. The fastest barrel ignition I have timed were .036 -.038 seconds.
I don't like giving results without data to back up the findings. The evidence is available at: BPM
Feel free to examine the tests, experiments, etc. All of the above statements came from the tests and experiments at blackpowdermag. I hope you are willing to dig into this; it has been really fun to do.
One last thing. Slow motion video, found here give you a chance to watch flintlocks ignite ffg, ffffg, and nullB. In all we videoed 80+ locks of all kinds at Friendship in 2007 and 2009.
Regards,
Pletch
I started timing locks, vents, and priming powders in the 1980's and continue experimenting whenever a new question hits me. The instant flint ignition is often sought but unreachable. Below are a few statements that I have discovered in 30 years of study.
The fastest lock I have ever timed was an original Joseph Manton at .0299 seconds. Most locks fall between .0377 and .0450 seconds.
Null B priming is faster than any other powder currently available.
Priming location in the pan is important. Prime against the barrel is faster than any other pan location.
Internally coned vents are quicker than straight vent holes. The fastest barrel ignition I have timed were .036 -.038 seconds.
I don't like giving results without data to back up the findings. The evidence is available at: BPM
Feel free to examine the tests, experiments, etc. All of the above statements came from the tests and experiments at blackpowdermag. I hope you are willing to dig into this; it has been really fun to do.
One last thing. Slow motion video, found here give you a chance to watch flintlocks ignite ffg, ffffg, and nullB. In all we videoed 80+ locks of all kinds at Friendship in 2007 and 2009.
Regards,
Pletch
Don Steele
45 Cal.
Hadden West makes a couple of excellent points that are often overlooked in pursuit of optimal ignition speed.
The ROCK...
Choice of flint and proper mounting of that piece is critical to getting the best your lock will do.
I learned that by doing it "wrong" a lot, :redface:
which generated perceptible "ignition issues".
I'm getting a lot better choosing and mounting my rock...also getting a lot better at what I call "rock maintenance"...keeping a good edge on my flint.
It's amazing how much better my ignition speed, reliability, and flint-life have ALL improved..!! :thumbsup:
I've also picked up a pound of Swiss NullB for getting serious :wink:. I believe granulation counts..ever since I found myself at the range with nothing but 2f to shoot... :redface: :cursing:
Things were so bad....I just gave it up and went home :surrender:
The ROCK...
Choice of flint and proper mounting of that piece is critical to getting the best your lock will do.
I learned that by doing it "wrong" a lot, :redface:
which generated perceptible "ignition issues".
I'm getting a lot better choosing and mounting my rock...also getting a lot better at what I call "rock maintenance"...keeping a good edge on my flint.
It's amazing how much better my ignition speed, reliability, and flint-life have ALL improved..!! :thumbsup:
I've also picked up a pound of Swiss NullB for getting serious :wink:. I believe granulation counts..ever since I found myself at the range with nothing but 2f to shoot... :redface: :cursing:
Things were so bad....I just gave it up and went home :surrender:
don hepler
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I belong to a shooting range and we have a group that meets once a month to shoot our flintlocks, just for fun. Nobody wants to look bad, in front of a group, and that's when I became real picky, when selecting flints. I made a little gage by bending a piece of aluminum and when I have the chance to buy flints, I use it to measure the ones that I want. Using the gage, I can lay out a dozen flints and they all look pretty much alike. This makes it easier to switch out flints. The thickness, the length and width, and the hump, and angle of the leading edge all help make the ignition more consistent. When you find a good flint, make note of it, and use that as the standard.
Tom Compton
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Often overlooked in the quest for faster ignition of a flintlock as well as reliability is the size of the touchhole. In my experience 1/16" is the smallest for both speed and reliability of ignition. A coned liner As Pletch mentioned opened to at least a sixteenth of an inch is the starting point IMO.
TC
TC
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The thing that made the big difference for me was learning to pressure flake flint with knapping tools.
The typical method of sharpening flint with the cock back stroke or hammer of some type is not the best way to maintain a good edge and both shorten flint life over pressure flaking.
When one can make their own flints from scratch they can be shaped to best work in your particular lock and maintaining a long lasting, sharp edge becomes easy.
The typical method of sharpening flint with the cock back stroke or hammer of some type is not the best way to maintain a good edge and both shorten flint life over pressure flaking.
When one can make their own flints from scratch they can be shaped to best work in your particular lock and maintaining a long lasting, sharp edge becomes easy.
I don't mind some "lag" in ignition of a flintlock....if I want faster firing times, I wouldn't be shooting flints. Caplocks or CFs are faster.
Neglecting all the "picky stuff", the most important items for fast, reliable ignition are a quality lock and a White Lightning TH liner. I get both from Chambers. If these 2 items aren't present, perhaps it's the reason for all the "picky stuff" that actually might be necessary....Fred
Neglecting all the "picky stuff", the most important items for fast, reliable ignition are a quality lock and a White Lightning TH liner. I get both from Chambers. If these 2 items aren't present, perhaps it's the reason for all the "picky stuff" that actually might be necessary....Fred
Larry Pletcher
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I'm not sure if this was mentioned; I didn't and should have. Clean lock and vent (especially the vent) is vital. Do what ever necessary to keep your vent squeeeeakly clean. Fouling can make a large vent into a small one - or no vent at all.
In testing, fouling one of the vital variables to control. I usually use a pipe cleaner and compressed air - but that's in a garage test.
I learned a big lesson when cleaning between tests. The barrel had a clean out hole opposite the vent. I looked through the clean out hole at the vent and saw a clump of fouling in the vent. I inserted a pick while I watched through the clean out hole. The pick pushed the fouling on into the barrel. BUT, when I took the pick out, the fouling was pulled back into the vent where it was before.
If I were in a flintlock reliability contest. I would use a pipe cleaner between shots. My main reason for using a vent bigger than 1/16" is to be able to use a pipe cleaner. And it's vital in testing.
Regards,
Pletch
In testing, fouling one of the vital variables to control. I usually use a pipe cleaner and compressed air - but that's in a garage test.
I learned a big lesson when cleaning between tests. The barrel had a clean out hole opposite the vent. I looked through the clean out hole at the vent and saw a clump of fouling in the vent. I inserted a pick while I watched through the clean out hole. The pick pushed the fouling on into the barrel. BUT, when I took the pick out, the fouling was pulled back into the vent where it was before.
If I were in a flintlock reliability contest. I would use a pipe cleaner between shots. My main reason for using a vent bigger than 1/16" is to be able to use a pipe cleaner. And it's vital in testing.
Regards,
Pletch
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Speed of ignition is important because it allows less time to move off target but lag is OK too if it is consistent.
I would say that inconsistency of ignition speed is the real bug-a-boo.
I would say that inconsistency of ignition speed is the real bug-a-boo.
