Barrel twist for deer hunting

[nkbj]

Get a second hand flintlock Traditions Deerhunter and get good with it. They have good rifling. Mine has a lock on it that's so reliable it causes percussion guns to weep. Shoot hollow based bullets, round ball and Lee REAL's. Then if you decide that you like flintlocks, sell the Deerhunter and spend the big bucks on a piece with the aesthetics that catch your eye and really makes your heart sing.

 

[Patched]

personally, I think there ain't a dimes worth of difference between 1-48 to 1-72,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yer right…no difference if yer ringing steel plates at 40 yds using 40 grs of powder….
A 1-72 twist will allow you to use 3 times that 40 grs charge without “skipping” the rifling thus preserving your accuracy and energy at 100yds+….
Deer and even elk don’t necessarily need a heavy whalloping but it’s gotta be in the right place…the 1-72 twist “heavy” load gives a flat trajectory … making the right place so much more likely to be hit so much more often.
(I tried those dept store 1-48 guns in my youth…great fun for targets….all my serious killing guns are 1-72 to 1-75 54s)

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Yer right…no difference if yer ringing steel plates at 40 yds using 40 grs of powder….
A 1-72 twist will allow you to use 3 times that 40 grs charge without “skipping” the rifling thus preserving your accuracy and energy at 100yds+….
Deer and even elk don’t necessarily need a heavy whalloping but it’s gotta be in the right place…the 1-72 twist “heavy” load gives a flat trajectory … making the right place so much more likely to be hit so much more often.
(I tried those dept store 1-48 guns in my youth…great fun for targets….all my serious killing guns are 1-72 to 1-75 54s)

Are we to infer from this Sam and Jake didn't make serious killing guns?

Exactly how do you know balls skip over 1:48 rifling with heavy charges. Please cite a primary source.

 

[westrayer]

Production guns will be 1-48" twist. I have owned 1-60" twist barrels and they shot roundball like a dream. But they were in Renegades so they were heavy and the stocks didn't have enough drop in them for me. The Green Mountain 32" barrel was a beast to carry all day.
Currently I have a Deerstalker in cap and a T/C Hawken in flint. Each in .50 and each likes 80 grains of FFFg under a patched roundball. I get about 2" group at 50 yards but it opens up to about 5" at 100 yards. Still good enough to do the job so long as I do my part.

 

[olskool]

Yer right…no difference if yer ringing steel plates at 40 yds using 40 grs of powder….
A 1-72 twist will allow you to use 3 times that 40 grs charge without “skipping” the rifling thus preserving your accuracy and energy at 100yds+….
Deer and even elk don’t necessarily need a heavy whalloping but it’s gotta be in the right place…the 1-72 twist “heavy” load gives a flat trajectory … making the right place so much more likely to be hit so much more often.
(I tried those dept store 1-48 guns in my youth…great fun for targets….all my serious killing guns are 1-72 to 1-75 54s)

well ok then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Grenadier1758]

Once again, I must say that the depth of the rifling is the important factor to consider. The 1 in 48 twist barrels with a depth of rifling as used by many reknowned gun makers of the 19th century were very accurate. They used cut rifling with a depth of the groove of 0.010" to about 0.014". Deep grooves, thick patches and fairly tight patch to ball fit prevented this skipping over the lands we encounter with the modern shallow grooved, button rifled barrels. The thin patching used doesn't engrave on the ball and fill the grooves. It is the button rifling process, not the rate of twist that is the issue for modern rifles.

 

[nchawkeye]

Once again, I must say that the depth of the rifling is the important factor to consider. The 1 in 48 twist barrels with a depth of rifling as used by many reknowned gun makers of the 19th century were very accurate. They used cut rifling with a depth of the groove of 0.010" to about 0.014". Deep grooves, thick patches and fairly tight patch to ball fit prevented this skipping over the lands we encounter with the modern shallow grooved, button rifled barrels. The thin patching used doesn't engrave on the ball and fill the grooves. It is the button rifling process, not the rate of twist that is the issue for modern rifles.

Exactly, Sam & Jake didn't use button rifling, no need too, they were still shooting round balls in the 1840s...

That is why it is hard to compare a T/C barrel to a properly made round ball barrel.

 

[Okie Hog]

The problem with the Thompson Center rifles ain't the 1/48'' rifling twist rate; It's the very shallow grooves.

In order to get reasonable accuracy from patched round balls; those TC rifles require a tight fitting patch/ball seated hard on the powder.

Yep,many muzzleloader shooters claim that rifles with faster rifling twist rates won't shoot patched round balls worth a hoot. I've found .50 and .54 rifles with 1/32 " rifling rates to fire patched round balls very accurately using 60-70 grains of Pyrodex RS or Black MZ powder.


Doc White did a lot of research, shooting patched round balls from fast twist rate rifles;

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

 

[longcruise]

. Deep grooves, thick patches and fairly tight patch to ball fit prevented this skipping over the lands we encounter with the modern shallow grooved, button rifled barrels.

Well, I've made it a point for many years to enquire of the definitive source that proves that this happens whenever it has popped up. I don't "think" it happens but I could easily be wrong. Maybe someone has proven that it happens, so just wanting to backfill this hole in my knowledge

 

[Banjoman]

I think when we talk about deer hunting, we should remember that Native Americans hunted deer with hand made bows and arrows for centuries.

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[cynthialee]

I hunt with a TC Hawken with a 1/48 twist. Seems to do just fine and dandy.

 

[snakeman]

Fifty cal patched round ball. 1 in 66 twist. 70 yards.

 

[Patched]

Are we to infer from this Sam and Jake didn't make serious killing guns?

Exactly how do you know balls skip over 1:48 rifling with heavy charges. Please cite a primary source.

Infer what you will about Jake and Sam’s guns…the ones I examined had deep cut rifling…wasn’t able to ascertain the twist rates.

I’ll cite myself as the primary source for PRBs skipping the rifling….every 1:48 twist barrel I’ve owned and shot had the typical TC shallow groove rifling…great shooters with tightly PRBs and very light charges…

But you can check out this English “old school” dangerous game hunter that did his homework before heading off tiger hunting and Cape buffalo busting.

James Forsyth’s 1867 book “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” addresses the “ball skipping the rifling” issue…as did Sam Fadala in his published book.

 

[bpd303]

I hunt with a TC Hawken with a 1/48 twist. Seems to do just fine and dandy.

I have a T C Hawken 50 cal with a 1/48 twist that I acquired in 1981. It has fairly deep groves and with 80 gr FFFG Goex, a 490 cast ball and 15 thousands denim spit patch. Although I don't hunt any longer the last buck I shot was 50 paces away and DRT. It will shoot a 5 shot group with all touching at 32 yards.

 

[longcruise]

I think when we talk about deer hunting, we should remember that Native Americans hunted deer with hand made bows and arrows for centuries.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Hey, I still do that.

I’ll cite myself as the primary source for PRBs skipping the rifling….every 1:48 twist barrel I’ve owned and shot had the typical TC shallow groove rifling…great shooters with tightly PRBs and very light charges…

I have owned Five TC rifles and several additional barrels and none of them showed any sign of skipping the rifling. I shot my first, a TC 50, with 90 grains of ff for a long time and did fine shooting targets and game. I shot a TC 45 cal with RB and up to 120 grains of fff and it showed no signs of bad behavior.

I stared shooting 70 grains in the 50's and 80 grains in the 54 just because more than that just was not needed. I shot the 54 with 80 grains at a shoot that had a large registration. I was #219 but others registered after me. I shot two aggregates and took third place in one and second place in the other. out of first by one X. That was with much younger eyes!

James Forsyth’s 1867 book “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” addresses the “ball skipping the rifling” issue…as did Sam Fadala in his published book.

Forsyth's and Fadala's opinions are just that as are yours. I'm looking for definitive proof that this takes place but haven't seen it yet. I'm ready to accept it as fact but then there's that old evidence thing....

I shoot 1:30 bullets at 2150 fps out of a 1:10 twist barrel with very shallow rifling and the accuracy is fine. That proves nothing either way it's something to think about.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

I can do rigorous thought experiments that will slam my mind shut, making me reject any other options. (I think it so, therefore it IS.) However, I respect hard physical world expiramental evidence to pure imaginings. Until I see ultra high-speed photography of a ball skipping across rifling in a transparent barrel I'll continue to skip the skipping theory. There are just too many variables to consider.

 

[morehops52]

You said flintlock so you seem to want to go nice and traditional. You would probably be more satisfied with round balls. That means a slow twist as mentioned. I personally like Maxis and all my rifles are 1:48. It's a decent compromise twist that works well for my needs. If I ever run out of Maxis I can switch to RB. I do prefer .54 but you have more accessories/options available with .50

 

[Trigger]

I think when we talk about deer hunting, we should remember that Native Americans hunted deer with hand made bows and arrows for centuries.

Just my .02 cents worth.

I don't think it's there bow.. they didn't invent a bow.

Africa I think. And it made its way.

 

[Patched]

Hey, I still do that.

I have owned Five TC rifles and several additional barrels and none of them showed any sign of skipping the rifling. I shot my first, a TC 50, with 90 grains of ff for a long time and did fine shooting targets and game. I shot a TC 45 cal with RB and up to 120 grains of fff and it showed no signs of bad behavior.

I stared shooting 70 grains in the 50's and 80 grains in the 54 just because more than that just was not needed. I shot the 54 with 80 grains at a shoot that had a large registration. I was #219 but others registered after me. I shot two aggregates and took third place in one and second place in the other. out of first by one X. That was with much younger eyes!

Forsyth's and Fadala's opinions are just that as are yours. I'm looking for definitive proof that this takes place but haven't seen it yet. I'm ready to accept it as fact but then there's that old evidence thing....

I shoot 1:30 bullets at 2150 fps out of a 1:10 twist barrel with very shallow rifling and the accuracy is fine. That proves nothing either way it's something to think

Wow!….you’re like a muzzleloader god…I should listen to you…but my 4 TC “wanna-b-Hawkens” shot superbly with 50 grs of GEOX and accuracy went to the toilet if I tried to shoot a hunting load of 70 grs.

Never had that problem with my GRRW barrels and things got even better when I built my guns with Getz 1:75 twist barrels…my PRBs never skipped the rifling once I stopped shooting barrels made for conical projectiles.

I even own several in-line guns….the accuracy and the higher BC bullets make me feel like I’m cheating.

You’re right…there is no evidence of skipping the rifling …ever since that TC junk left my property, I don’t care if it skips or not …so be right.

 

[Kmcmichael]

I’ve killed two deer with a longbow. It was exhilarating. I really don’t get the nexus.
This is a forum where one question is asked, then a bunch of others put thier 2 cents in…or wax eloquently for 2 pages. I generally belong to the second group. The Foghorn Leghorns if you will.

The theory is that faster twists can be more accurate with lower powder charges. I know that some of you have experienced this with unmentionables and heavier bullets etc.
Conicals take faster twist, the heavier the faster would be the other theory
However each barrel is a law unto itself.
It is just a lot easier to shoot different powder charges until one finds the most accurate. At times this goes against common perceived theories.

If I had ready access to a 500 yard range I would get a fast twist .40 cal barrel percussion gun and some heavy conicals and get after it. I don’t.

Patched round balls will kill deer and punch holes in paper reasonably well at 82 yards.

Part of the enjoyment is learning what your gun will do…and commenting on your findings in forums and like minded friends.