shot cup or not

[Razorx]

Hey Everyone,

Need some advice about weather to use a shot cup or not. I had a davide pedersoli SXS 12ga. The barrels are chromed lined and there is no choke(as far as I can tell it is .72 at the barrel). I was planning on triing 85gr of pyrodexRS and 1 or 1 1/4 oz of #5 zinc plated steel shot(from precision reloading). The wads are from Track of the wolf and the fiber wad I planned on spliting in half and using half on each side. I am not sure how a shot cup would work with black powder. I am looking at getting some distatence(not try for 100yd shtos but would like a good pattern out say to 50yds) but not sure if using one would help or not. I know that the guy that had it before me said he used them but need to grease them up and I beleive he only patterned out to 25yds. I realize that each gun is different but wanted some opions. Will be upland hunting over a dog and waterfowl over decoys if this info helps on opions. Thanks for your time.

Nolan

 

[Mike Brooks]

I tried them years ago. Not consistent enough for my use.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh, for God's Sake. There is NO shotgun that is going to pattern at 100 yards, with anything. Get REAL! Its hard enough to get any kind of group at 100 yards shooting shotgun slugs!

Your cylinder bore shotgun is a 25 yard to 30 yard gun MAXIMUM. That does not mean that heavy shot pellets don't retain energy sufficient to wound and kill at much further distances. It means that your pattern beyond these shorter ranges is going to be so WIDE that its possible to miss a bird entirely. Generally, you need 3-5 hits in the upper body of a bird to bring it down. If you break a wingbone, with even one pellet, its coming down, but then you are in for a footchase.

The plastic shot cups can be used with OP WADS, ( 1/8" Thick hard cardboard) and using a cushion wad that is lubricated. I recommend splitting the cushion wads in half so they are no thicker than 1/4", so they don't "donut hole" your patterns. You would then place the shot cup, with shot, on top of the cushion wad, and follow it with an Over Shot Card(1/10")to hold the shot in the barrel.

I have not worked with Pyrodex RS, in more than 30 years. The formula was changed a bit after Dan Pawluck died, and I last tried the stuff. You are on your own. I don't understand why you don't just use Black Powder.

I don't know why you would choose zinc plated shot. If you are using shotcups, the plated shot would normally not be necessary. You CANNOT use plated lead shot to shoot ducks or geese in the USA. Plated shot is not normally needed to shoot any upland game birds. It IS useful if you are hunting turkey, however. Is that what you are trying to load your shotgun to shoot-- Turkey?

#4 or #5 plated shot( copper is fine, but nickel is also good) will TRANSFER pellet energy better to a large, heavily feathered bird like a Turkey, driving through the feathers to reach the body and penetrate the flesh, than will ordinary lead shot. It is this need to be able to penetrate Feathers, that makes using plated shot preferred by most hunters. Of course, we all try to shoot for the neck and head, but at 30 yards, that is a small target, and your pattern is going to be spread enough that it next to impossible to ONLY Hit the head and neck, without also hitting the upper torso.

Finally, I think your loads are a bit heavy, if that is a 12 gauge gun. Read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook site, reading both HIS article at the beginning, and then scroll down the first page and find the article from V.M. Starr, on shotgun loads.

Remember, YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING SMOKELESS POWDER IN A MODERN SHOTGUN. Both Black Powder, and the substitute powders are not going to give you the same performance that you would get with smokeless powder loads in the same gauge in a modern shotgun. To get better patterns with a cylinder bore gun, You REDUCE the powder charge, not increase it. Those higher velocity loads sold to modern shotgun shooters are specically designed to be shot out of shotguns that are choked. Your gun is not choked. The lack of choke changes the performance characteristics.

 

[pmwest]

Just a couple of additional notes on steel shot:

Plastic shot cups leave plastic “wash” in the bore. Plan on wiping this out after 3-5 shots. A cleaning patch wrapped around a bronze brush works well.

I like the Multi-metal wads marketed by Ballistic Products. They are available in several sizes but are a little pricey.

Steel shot performs best at higher velocity. Load your shot by volume, not weight. If you measure 85 grains of powder, use the same measure and use an equal volume of shot. Try a little less shot and see what kind of pattern you can get. I would use the maximum powder charge that your gun manufacturer allows and use the least amount of shot that will give you a good pattern at 30 yards.

Black powder (or subs) do not give high enough velocity to make steel shot very effective. Killing range will be limited to 25-30 yards. Bismuth or tungsten alloys are a better choice for waterfowl. Bismuth will benefit from a plastic cup but is not required. The alloys require a cup.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Like Paul said, cylinder bore patterns become pretty sketchy past 25 yards and even a full choke probably won't reach 50 yards, modern shotguns included. That is not to say game is not taken at 50, 60 and 70 yards but if it happens it will be a lucky fluke. Those things happen often enough to give people very misleading notions. Someone kills one duck at 75 yards with #4 shot from a .410 shotgun and for the rest of their life they will proclaim a .410 can kill as far as a 10ga if you're just a good enough shot. If they'd ever bothered to pattern that load on paper they would see that it requires a bit of luck to make a clean kill at 25 yards with that gun and load.
If you lay your hand flat on your desk top, that is roughly the size of the body of a mallard duck or a cock pheasant. Shoot one load on paper at 30 yards and you will no doubt find spaces in the pattern where you can place your hand without touching a single pellet hole. There may also be spots where your hand will cover a dozen pellets.
Which spot happens to cover the bird is totally beyond your control, in other words LUCK.
With a cylinder bored 12ga I'd not use larger than #6 shot. That will improve your pattern density over #5s and still have penetration enough
to kill big birds well past the range where the pattern fails. Cylinder bores are great in tight cover or when birds are holding well for a pointer but for pass shooting ducks or for pheasants that flush wild, the cylinder bore may as well stay at home.

 

[Razorx]

Hey guys

Thanks for your imput. I was told you would have to use a shot cup on steel. I know from things that I was reading here and other places, I was a really confussed. As for the load that is why I posted what I was looking at using. I was told to use it or to try 85gr of powder and 1 1/14oz shot. Some even said to use 90gr of powder and 1 1/4oz shot. Both were #6 shot. I have no clue so that is why I posted. I will read the articles that you told me to read. As for the zinc plated steel shot, I was looking at it because on goverment land I have to use steel or something not lead. Any suggestion on shot and were else to look I would be willing to here.

Nolan

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes, we are all in a bit of a quandary regarding the non-toxic shot issue. It seems that bismuth shot is not available right now and steel is pretty poor stuff ballisticly. I haven't hunted waterfowl in years and don't really know much about the non-toxic shot but I'm sure you will need a heavy shotcup to protect the bore from steel shot. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Please don,t get hung up on range my friend, it seems every body does today. I,m just glad you want to be differant and hunt with that gun just as I do with mine. I have messed about with found plas wads in the past and yes they can make a differance but I soon got fed up fiddling with them so now I just use the cards and change my hunting methods to get in range. Yes if you are on steel then by all means protect the bores.
I still think it is far more exciting getting your quarry in close than the stress trying to shoot at extended distances, thats why I still occasionally use my 410-the challenge :thumbsup:

 

[cptleo1]

Not

 

[Stumpkiller]

Less powder
More lead
Shoots far
Kills dead

More powder
less lead
up close
wide spread

With 85 gr and a cylinder bore you'll blow a wide open pattern. I have a cylinder bore 12 ga and I use 1-1/4 oz #6 and 75 gr FFg and still can't get out past 30 yards reliably. I slice plastic piston wads and keep just the cup and that helps some.

If you look on some modern shotgun shells they still list a "drams equivalent" for their powder charge. The old loads were in drams. One dram equals 27-11/32 grains, so a three dram load is 82 gr of FFg. A 2-3/4 dram load (what I use) is 75 gr.

If you want 100 yards with a shotgun you'll need a 60mm flechette round.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The advice you received is sound, but everything depends on what you want to hunt, and how good you are at getting close to the birds before firing. When you don't tell us you want to hunt Geese, and ducks, you are going to get just about every kind of advice on loads. No one seriously looks at a cylinder bore shotgun for shooting any than a very close range goose or duck. If you pick your shots, and wait for them to come in closer, you can shoot ducks and geese at under 25 yards. I have done it. It doesn't present itself to the hunter everyday, and when it does its memorable, but its been done.

Go to the member resources section at the top of the index page here, and scroll down to articles, and " Links". Click on Links, and find the link to Ballistic's Products. They have an on-line catalogue, and they offer whatever " NON-TOXIC " shot is now available. If they don't offer something you have heard about, CALL them on their 800 number and ask. Catalogues are printed months in advance, and may not list something that now IS available. We are all Waiting to see if Bismuth Shot will be made again, since the owner of the company died, and his family indicated an intention to just close the business. According to comments made on this forum, others are planning to produce bismuth shot. There is Tungsten/iron, or Tungsten/ matrix shot, also " NON-TOXIC ", which has not yet become available on the open market as a reloader supply, but may soon. There is Hevi-Shot, but it was not yet available to shooters as a reloader supply, either. Some BP shotgun shooters are buying modern shell, taking the shot out of the shells to gain a small supply, and scrapping the rest of the hull. Considering the restrictions on bag limits for goose hunting, for instance, this is not such an expensive idea as it first sounds.

Hoopefully, in the next year or two, there will be lots of Non-Toxic shot available as reloading components, so that we can load our guns with something that will not ruin the softer steel in our barrels. I suspect we will always be stuck with using plastic shot cups, and will have to take a bore brush to the blinds with us to scrape out the plastic build up after several shots, but that will be a small price to pay to get back into using BP again to hunt migratory waterfowl.

BTW, the largest bag limits, and the longest season for geese are for the Blue and Snow geese, much smaller species than the Canada Goose, with 15 birds per day. The seasons in the central flyway tend to start in January, and go through the beginning of March, and sometimes later, so we can go goose hunting after deer season and upland game season closes. A lot of people don't like to eat Blue and Snows, because they don't know how to soak the meat to remove the " muddy " taste from it before cooking. There are excellent recipies available if someone looks. Oh, The Feds allow us to use mechanical calling devices to call in the Blues and Snows, because they are so difficult to call into shooting range. If you shoot blues and snow, you will be helping to save their nesting grounds in the Canadian Yukon territories, where they have been destroying the plant life there by over eating. The populations need to be thinned, to save them from their own successful breeding. Otherwise, they will eat themselves into a massive starvation die-off, where most of the bird will die either of diseases, or from starvation or both. Diseases that impact them may also spread to other species, and that could cause a true disaster.

 

[Leatherbark]

Tried them once in a New Englander 12 guage. Wasnt worth the trouble..........But you might try using paper shot cups. Homemade.........or if you feel you would like to try plastic then cut off the power piston end and just use the cup on top of your other wads. But then the wads will probably blow through the pattern................Bob

 

[roundball]

Yeah, even the paper shot cups are not fool proof and send a slug down range every now and then...and even if they worked all the time they are just another couple steps to have to fool with while hunting.

Personally, after having a smoothbore jug choked and seeing how fantastic they work, my recommendation would be to skip a few burgers & fries and find somebody to jug choke the barrels and then concentrate on hunting. :wink:

 

[Rebel]

There is NO WAy that you are going to get a pattern out to 50 yds, especially with no choke. Your range is going to be 25-30 yds max.. And even if you do hit something with steel shot further than that it won't do much. Steel is too light to maintain any energy.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Besides, whatcha gotta lead a Pintail at 100 yards? 45 feet or so?

A NY rabbit would have done two 45º turns before the shot arrived where he mighta been but weren't.

A grouse? You won't SEE a grouse at 100 yards because he's put seven trees between you.

Shotguns is for up close and personal. Pointing and punching it out instead of aiming. Don't think "rifle". Rifles are for that type of shooting.

 

[Razorx]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks again for your imput. I have to say that I got alot of useful info. I ordered my wads today. Just thoguht I would ask what I should do for lub on the fiber ones. Also if I use shot cups. Does it matter if the cup is smooth like the green ones from precission reloading. The only reason for me asking is I can get shot cups from my local scheels but they are not smooth. Didn't know if this would cause a problem or not. Second is the size of the shot cup. If I plan on shooting 1 or 1 1/4oz do I need a 3 1/2" shot cup. Sorry if this is a stupid question. If I ordered from ballistic products which ones mit you recommend. Thanks for your imput

Nolan

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you insist on using shot cups, the ones with ribs on the side, like those sold by ballistics products, make more sense. There is less friction with the sides of your barrel, the ribs give the cup strength and hold the shot away from the bore, so if a piece of shot does pierce the plastic wall, it won't scrape the chrome bore. Ribs will leave less plastic in your bore, than if you use a smooth-sided cup. Get a product like Shooter's Choice bore solvent to remove the plastic from the barrels.

As to length, your shot column in a 12 gauge using 1 1/4 oz of shot will only be about 1 1/2 inches long at the most. Probably less than that, depending on the shotcup used. I don't think there are any 3 1/2" long shotcups made. There are cups made for 3 1/2" long 12 gauge shotgun hulls.

Read the catalogue information carefully. Then call the place in person, and talk to someone who knows guns, not some person hired to take orders over the phone. Tell whoever answers the phone that you are new to this sport, and am not sure you are ordering the right stuff. Ask to speak to someone who knows. These companies have plenty of knowledgable people on staff who can help you. If you order from Track, or Ballistics Products, Or Dixie Gun Works, they will tell you exactly what you need. All they will need to know from you are the make and model and gauge of the shotgun.

 

[ssettle]

I have a shotgun thats very close to what you have buts it's a Dixie 10 gage. I tried all kinds of different loads , ended up not using the cushion wads . I found I got a much better pattern using just the thin overshot card wads and a paper shotcup. I also replaced the thick over powder wad with 2 thin card wads. I use a very heavy load and certainly wouldn't recomend it to anyone else. My gun kicks the manure out of me but I load for turkeys so it's not like I have to shoot alot, also the steel butt plate doesn't help :shocked2: ..My powder charge is pretty stout but not over what the gun recomends . I get good patterns out to about 30 yards with both barrels but I have a different point of aim on the one. Good luck Steve.. :

 

[aloyalistdawg]

Hello
I have a double 12, water fowler cap lock (replica). I feed it with steel shot. I use the steel shot wads and get excellent results. I do have some problems with the first feed. I put 100 grains of 3 f followed by an over powder wad, then a cushion wad, then a cup (filling it after stuffing it just to the muzzle). I then place and over shot wad in. I have taken a few woody's with it and it performs as good as any of my buddies "modern guns"...
Even my yellow lab knows whats happening when I take the little 12 out of the closet... well let me know what you guys think, my best regards .. just a loyalist dawg :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't think you need to use both a cushion wad and the shot cup, but if it throws great patterns, don't Fix It! You say you have a problem with the ' first feed ", but don't explain what the problem is? Mind writing back and telling us what that problem is? Are you using a Pre-Lubed cushion wad? Are you lubing the barrel with anything?