Shot Cups

[wtilenw]

I've talked to a few people who are using plastic shot cups in their blackpowder loads. I've heard some people say they cut off the bottom cushion portion of regular shotgun reloading wads, (i.e. WAA12, Power Piston) and others mention nothing of removing this portion. Is there any danger in leaving it on? Does it create a "Gap" in the charge column, essentially, and produce high pressures? I would like all possibilities open to me in working up loads but dont want to jeapordize my health or my guns'.
Thanks, Idaho PRB :shocking:

 

[Rebel]

I used the Win. AA shotcups for years in my double .12. I put in the powder then the cup, shot, and overpowder wad. The only time i cut the cushion off is if i use a card and cushion wad under them. Never had any problem. I also use the heavy steel plastic shotcups for steel shot. They don't have the cushion on them. I normally put a card wad down under them to get a better gas seal, since they don't seem to obturate as much as the lead cups do. :m2c:

 

[Flint50]

I have used shot cups in my dbl .12 percussion since 1985. I have never cut them, and have never had a problem. (Maybe I have been blissfully unaware of a potential problem!) I have used them in many different loads and shot sizes. Good Luck! :m2c:

 

[Rat]

Hello my name is Rat and I use plastic shot cups in my Brown Bess carbine, aka "Bloody Bess".

Use them just as they come out of the bag, except I wrap that sucker in a post-it-note, pour in the shot and then close it up for a self contained shot charge. Since Bess is an 11 gauge, and the cups I use are 12 gauge, the paper wrap makes for an absolutely perfect fit.

Depending what I'm going to shoot at, I modify the "petals" in different ways, but never remove the cushion portion. Always use a Wonder Wad under it too.

Rat

 

[wtilenw]

Thanks Guys,
I'll be trying it soon. I received the gun Friday and had to watch my 2 1/2 year old daughter all weekend while Mama was at a business conference out of town.....it was killing me not to be out shooting! I still had fun and next weekend IS MINE!! I'll let you know how it pans out.
Idaho PRB

 

[musketman]

I've heard some people say they cut off the bottom cushion portion of regular shotgun reloading wads, (i.e. WAA12, Power Piston) and others mention nothing of removing this portion. Is there any danger in leaving it on?

The "gap" will close with black powder loads the same as with smokeless powders, the pressure with black is lower, but the shot cup's cussion will work as design...

 

I think perhaps they're(those who cut it off) thinking the cushion isn't required, and it really isn't to keep the shot from being mashed. Although BP goes off with a blam, it still starts the shot slower than do smokeless powders in modern loads. In this respect, BP loads don't need the cushion BUT removing the cushion allows better compression of the powder, which helps BP burn better, especially in the smoothbore with the shorter barrels. As well,there should be a wad of sorts between the powder and the shot-cup to keep the powder flame from melting plastic onto the bore.

 

[musketman]

As well,there should be a wad of sorts between the powder and the shot-cup to keep the powder flame from melting plastic onto the bore.

A simple over-powder card between the powder and the de-cushioned shot cup will work fine...

 

[BrownBear]

One thing not mentioned, yet it had a huge effect on results with shotcups in MLs for me: The amount of pressure you put on the load when seating. The more consistent you can be, the more consistent your results. It may go back to all those seating pressure recommendations on shotshell loading data. In my experience the Remingtons worked best when you pushed down hard enough that you could feel the cushion just start to collapse. Winchester Red AAs seem to like seating just firmly against the powder without much more pressure, much like using ordinary felt wads without the cups. Keep an eye on the seating pressure you use, and you may see a difference.

 

[Rat]

Well that's another thing I like about paper patching the cup, it keeps plastic from meeting the inside of the bore.
However, except for using 12ga cups in an 11 gauge, it would be hard to find cups in most gauges that would allow for a paper wrap.

Bloody Bess...ya gotta just love her.

Rat

 

[RussB]

This discussion comes up pretty regular, and all for good reason. That "shot cup" determines how your pattern will behave, and it's one of the variables you do have good control over.
Seating of that shot cup on the powder is a big deal, in every sense of the word.

Eight or ten months ago I started making "shot cups" from brown paper bag, and I haven't felt a need to change.

I bought a "pack" of brown lunch bags, I cut them open in squares, then I cut that into 3" squares.

Then I use Elmer's glue on one one edge and roll it over twice, with a cushion wad of .250 thickness, on a dowell, that gives me a finished diameter of .658 for a bore that is .666. Then I fold over the end with the wad, and add a "drop" of glue.

When it has dried, I pour in 1.25 oz of shot... The same amount of shot, from the same measurer that I measure out 85gr of FFg.

Then I fold it over, but I don't glue it. If you glue it you will tighten the pattern considerably.

Then, I lube the paper wad, at the base, with Anhydrous Lanolin.

This is pretty much how the components look, when laid out for assembly.


All I carry in my shot bag is a couple dozen of these of these "shot wads", that are ready to shove down on top of the powder that I carry pre-measureed in a very similar paper. I tear one end of the "P" or Powder paper, pour the powder in, fold the paper over in to another wad, push it down on the powder.

Then I put a "S" or shot paper wad, down on top of the[url] powder...in[/url] one smooth move.

Then I put two OS cards over the shot.....I'm always scared of loosing the shot out the end of the barrel and never even knowing it.

I have tried making a complete powder & shot cartridge but I haven't had much luck in doing so. They are too heavy, and flimsy for the paper I use.
I do know one oldtimer who makes a very nice "shot cartridge" this same old feller rolls his cigarettes with one hand, and claims to know who shot President Kennedy... :crackup:

I apologize for this being so long and drawn out, but for someone who has never done this before, they may find it very helpful....And that is who I'm trying to get to. The fellow who is just learning.

I wish I had had this ten years ago.

Russ

 

[RiverRat]

Excellent post! Those pictures are worth 5000 words. When I get a fowler this summer, I will definetly recall your post and try your method out.

 

[Rat]

Very good Russ.

I've been using powder cartridges for everything, in the field for quite a while. At the range I just go "loose".

I've never tried making an entire shot cartridge, with shot and powder, but I do contain bullet and powder in the same "cartridge" for my .58 minnie rifles, which works out really good...just a capper around the neck and a pouch on the belt with the cartridges and I'm good to go.

I've never used brown paper bag, but that's a good idea, looks "homey", or "down home", old fashioned, and kind of "original".

Good stuff.

Rat

 

[RussB]

River Rat....Rat.

(Is that just plain old "Rat", or is it a special kind of Rat?)

Anyway, Thank you both for the kind comment. :master:

In this day of technology, and tons of information right at our finger tips, I would like to say, "I helped somebody, learn something"....no matter how small, or insignificant, as long as they learned something! And, it is easy enough to convey information, especially with pictures.

When I was learning this game, back in the 1950's, there was one man in the whole county who knew anything about muzzleloaders. The one thing I learned early was "to stay away from that old man"..."He ain't right ", they said.
Little did I know, they were probably right.

He was a crusty old gent who's patience was darn thin, and the only descriptive adjective he knew began with the letter F......, which was followed by a good 15 foot spit, that left his chin a mess, which was dutifully wipped on the back of his right shirt sleeve.

That right sleve on ALL his shirts had stains that no detergent of the time could remove! :youcrazy:

His only illustration was drawn in the dirt using a stick or his finger, followed by, "you see? you see?".

I didn't really "see", but I decided at the time.... There has got to be a better way! :master:

Russ

 

[wtilenw]

All I carry in my shot bag is a couple dozen of these of these "shot wads", that are ready to shove down on top of the powder that I carry pre-measureed in a very similar paper. I tear one end of the "P" or Powder paper, pour the powder in, fold the paper over in to another wad, push it down on the powder.

I followed You all the way until You said " fold the paper over in to another wad, push it down on the powder."
The pictures are great and help me tremendously but I'm having trouble figuring out if You have a SEPERATE paper container for (shot+cushion wad) and another for (powder) or if the powder is contained at one end of a complete paper cartridge that the powder end is torn open at loading time and after the powder is poured in, the excess paper is bunched up at the base of the cushion wad?? for some reason :redface: this part is going over my head. I'm glad You are willing to share this information with me and hope You don't mind my greenhorn questions. My shotgun is choked as well and I'm not sure if I could get a load down it without tearing it.
Idaho PRB

 

[RussB]

All I carry in my shot bag is a couple dozen of these of these "shot wads", that are ready to shove down on top of the powder that I carry pre-measureed in a very similar paper. I tear one end of the "P" or Powder paper, pour the powder in, fold the paper over in to another wad, push it down on the powder.

I followed You all the way until You said " fold the paper over in to another wad, push it down on the powder."
The pictures are great and help me tremendously but I'm having trouble figuring out if You have a SEPERATE paper container for (shot+cushion wad) and another for (powder) or if the powder is contained at one end of a complete paper cartridge that the powder end is torn open at loading time and after the powder is poured in, the excess paper is bunched up at the base of the cushion wad?? for some reason :redface: this part is going over my head. I'm glad You are willing to share this information with me and hope You don't mind my greenhorn questions. My shotgun is choked as well and I'm not sure if I could get a load down it without tearing it.
Idaho PRB

Idaho PRB....Yes, you've got it. There are two such "pouches"...One contains only powder...... That one is marked "P", in big bold letter with a magic marker. and is carried in my Possibles bag, It is also the one that becomes your OP (Over Powder) wad, once you drop the powder from it into the bore. Just wad it up, and cram it down on top of the powder.

The the other one, marked "S", is loaded with your shot and a "cushion wad"....one end of this one is glued, the other end..the shot end, is just folded over, although you can glue it......

note; when I "glued" both ends of the shot cartridge, and then put a couple of OS cards on top of that, at 30 yds, my pattern was about the size of 1/2 gal.milk carton, and shaped about the same.
I had a picture of a couple of targets that I showed once, but I can't find them in my pictures on photo bucket.

About that choke......Just measure the bore at the end of the barrel...make your dowell about .030 less than that. Your paper, with two rolls, will take up about .012 of that leaving you with .018 to play with. You can easily "slip" that wad, containing the shot, down the barrel with that much play.

Remember on your dowell...like a patch on a round ball, no matter which way you turn it, it will have two sides.
If you need .010 total, .005 on each side will equal .010.
The problem is, paper does not compress like a cloth patch.

Also, when you seat the "shot cartridge", I like to think I can tear, or break, that paper around the shot when I seat the OS cards.

Ask any question, as often as you like, until you fully understand. There are a lot of sharp pencils in this drawer, when mine gets dull...we will call on reinforcements. Several of these guys have "tons" of experience with this very same thing. :redthumb:

We may get lucky and get Captachee in on this. :master:

Russ

Oh, I think I may have confused you when I said "all I carry is........" I forgot to mention, I carry a small "Shot Bag" on my left side that has a liner in it that keeps the lube, on the base of the shot wad, off of my Possibles Bag, where I carry an equal number of "Powder Charges" made up just like the shot wad in the same brown paper.
I have never got 'em mixed up...one is very light, and clearly marked "P"....The other weights a bit over 1.25oz and is clearly marked "S".

 

[musketman]

Excellent post! Those pictures are worth 5000 words. When I get a fowler this summer, I will definetly recall your post and try your method out.

I agree, great job Russ... :redthumb:

 

[wtilenw]

Russ,
I measured my shotgun bores tonight and came up with the following. Right barrel .710", Left barrel .700". If 12 gauge is .729" then right barrel has .019" of restriction, making it a modified choke and the left barrel has .029" of restriction, making it an improved modified. I dont think the 12 ga. cushion wads I bought from TOTW at .740" will load with a paper shot cup. The 13 ga. wads are .720" and would load without the paper pretty easily but would be .730" with the paper. Pretty tight, huh? Do You think I should just bore the gun out to cylinder or pursue other loading methods and keep the choke restriction? I want tight patterns for turkey.
Thanks,
Idaho PRB :hmm:

 

[RussB]

Russ,
I measured my shotgun bores tonight and came up with the following. Right barrel .710", Left barrel .700". If 12 gauge is .729" then right barrel has .019" of restriction, making it a modified choke and the left barrel has .029" of restriction, making it an improved modified. I dont think the 12 ga. cushion wads I bought from TOTW at .740" will load with a paper shot cup. The 13 ga. wads are .720" and would load without the paper pretty easily but would be .730" with the paper. Pretty tight, huh? Do You think I should just bore the gun out to cylinder or pursue other loading methods and keep the choke restriction? I want tight patterns for turkey.
Thanks,
Idaho PRB :hmm:

Mmmmm....I didn't realize you were shooting a "side by each", this may call for a plastic wad after all....something with a little "give" in it, set up on a power charge with a OS card?????

I don't know what to tell you here Idaho. Maybe we can get some of the experts to help us out.

You may have to go with a 16 ga. and "bump it up" with paper. But even that would require two different size shot columns. Brown Paper Bag, at least the last batch I got, will average about .0025 in thickness....each roll, or wrap will give you .005...(.0025 on each side) a double roll will give you .010, and a roll three times around will give you an additional .015

Thicker paper ie. .0035 will almost double that. I'm sure you can come up with the right stuff for one barrel, but that will still leave you only "half-way". :shake:

Perhaps we can get some help on this.

Russ

 

[wtilenw]

I havn't actually shot the gun yet but I can start a WWAA12R wad in either barrel and can turn an over powder card sideways and get it past the chokes, so I know that is an option. I was just hoping to do it a little more traditional than that. I'll see how it patterns with the plastic wads and with the tecnique of using the 3-4 over powder cards + shot buffer that is talked about for turkey loads on another site.
Thanks, Idaho PRB eace: