Shot Placement
- Thread starter Loyalist Dave
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Yes, and the saying, "Aim small; miss small" also applies. While folks are going for a soccer or a smaller "volley ball" area inside of the deer, you pick out a spot on the outside of the deer where you want the bullet to actually hit, and concentrate on hitting the deer there since you know the rifle ball with travel inside to hit that area. Which means that if for some reason the rifle ball is off by an inch or two, you still hit the vital area.
LD
There is a little booklet called "1000 Tags Filled". It is an informational journal from a professional hunter that documents 1000 shots on animals. In electronic format it is searchable. The basic info includes type of animal, distance, caliber, bullet/load. Other important info includes shot placement, how many shots and how far the animal travelled before staying put. I don't have time to analyze this anytime real soon. If the OP would like a copy to analyze and share with the forum, send me a PM with email address and I will send you a copy.
I looked at the 1000 Tags Filled booklet and made a few quick notes only related to muzzleloader shots since they are most directly related to this discussion. There are 36 muzzleloader animals recorded. That sample is more than 1/2 of the data collected in this posts survey and these are from different people, so the correlations and conclusions can apply to us as a collective group. There were 19 shots into or behind the shoulder that hit lungs; 11 heart shots; 1 neck shot and 5 other. I don't know the best way to break down the data for simplicity but I will give ratios and averages to show what it says.
Dropped at the Shot - Traveled ZERO yards after shot = Shoulder/Lung 8:19 Heart 2:11 Other 3:5.
Traveled 20 yards = 1:19 Shoulder/Lung 1:11 Heart Traveled 25 yards = 1:19 Shoulder/Lung 1:11 Heart Traveled 40 yards 1:19 Shoulder/Lung (none other reported) Traveled 50 yards = 2:19 Shoulder/Lung 3:11 Heart 1:1 Neck. Traveled 90 yards 2:19 Shoulder/Lungs (none other reported). Traveled 100 yards 4:19 Shoulder/Lung 3:11 Heart 1:5 Other Traveled 220 yards 1:11 Heart (no other reported).
If you just take an average: Shoulder/Lung shots = 40.26 yards; Heart = 65 yards; Neck = 50 yards and Other = 34 yards.
There are some obvious conclusions: A shot that damages lungs results in the animal succumbing in approximately 1/3 less distance that one shot through the heart. The one neck shot represented likely did NOT hit the spine and the Other shots vary widely to include spine, liver and gut shots which may explain why 3 are DRT, 1 traveled 70 yards and 1 traveled 100 yards. Another noteworthy tidbit is that 1:36 animals went more than 100 yards. 25% went 100 yards and the remaining 75% went less than that. 34% were DRT. The Shoulder/Lung shot produced more DRT's, nearly 50% and also resulted in the least distance traveled after the shot. The Heart shot produced around 20% DRT and the longest distance traveled after the shot (compared to the other shot placements recorded).
The other important notation is that the animals represented are not just deer. There are only 5 Whitetail Deer represented here. There are also 3 Black Bears. The rest are Elk, Hippo, Water Buffalo, Watusi, Red Stag and Cape Buffalo. There are also 45, 50, 54 and 58 caliber muzzleloaders represented including conicals and ball.
There is a ton more data such as how far the animal was from the shooter, projectile type and weight and more. I'm just providing a snapshot. Again if the OP wants to go through this I can send it to him but it is over 200 pages of data to sort through.....
My personal take-away is that a muzzleloader is a formidable tool for any hunting!
Dropped at the Shot - Traveled ZERO yards after shot = Shoulder/Lung 8:19 Heart 2:11 Other 3:5.
Traveled 20 yards = 1:19 Shoulder/Lung 1:11 Heart Traveled 25 yards = 1:19 Shoulder/Lung 1:11 Heart Traveled 40 yards 1:19 Shoulder/Lung (none other reported) Traveled 50 yards = 2:19 Shoulder/Lung 3:11 Heart 1:1 Neck. Traveled 90 yards 2:19 Shoulder/Lungs (none other reported). Traveled 100 yards 4:19 Shoulder/Lung 3:11 Heart 1:5 Other Traveled 220 yards 1:11 Heart (no other reported).
If you just take an average: Shoulder/Lung shots = 40.26 yards; Heart = 65 yards; Neck = 50 yards and Other = 34 yards.
There are some obvious conclusions: A shot that damages lungs results in the animal succumbing in approximately 1/3 less distance that one shot through the heart. The one neck shot represented likely did NOT hit the spine and the Other shots vary widely to include spine, liver and gut shots which may explain why 3 are DRT, 1 traveled 70 yards and 1 traveled 100 yards. Another noteworthy tidbit is that 1:36 animals went more than 100 yards. 25% went 100 yards and the remaining 75% went less than that. 34% were DRT. The Shoulder/Lung shot produced more DRT's, nearly 50% and also resulted in the least distance traveled after the shot. The Heart shot produced around 20% DRT and the longest distance traveled after the shot (compared to the other shot placements recorded).
The other important notation is that the animals represented are not just deer. There are only 5 Whitetail Deer represented here. There are also 3 Black Bears. The rest are Elk, Hippo, Water Buffalo, Watusi, Red Stag and Cape Buffalo. There are also 45, 50, 54 and 58 caliber muzzleloaders represented including conicals and ball.
There is a ton more data such as how far the animal was from the shooter, projectile type and weight and more. I'm just providing a snapshot. Again if the OP wants to go through this I can send it to him but it is over 200 pages of data to sort through.....
My personal take-away is that a muzzleloader is a formidable tool for any hunting!
Desperate Lee
45 Cal.
If i am hunting for meat, almost always a head or neck shot. If i see an exceptional trophy deer then it is anywhere i can hit it and bring it down. Mostly thru the lungs.
Head shot? Ever see a deer or other critter shot in the jaw? Not pretty. And if you don’t somehow put it down with a follow up shot (can be difficult with a muzzleloader) the animal will slowly starve.
I voted none of the above,
I aim 3-4 inches forward of the two marked chest shots. The marks to me make a liver or gut shot more likely.
I have never lost a deer shot where I said most drop DRT. Behind we track and kill with a better shot.
We do not use neck shots nor head shots. IMHO little off and they wound only leaving a long death to the deer.
I aim 3-4 inches forward of the two marked chest shots. The marks to me make a liver or gut shot more likely.
I have never lost a deer shot where I said most drop DRT. Behind we track and kill with a better shot.
We do not use neck shots nor head shots. IMHO little off and they wound only leaving a long death to the deer.
Patocazador
54 Cal.
Hi SD. Your words about head shots are really very valid. I have taught hunter safety for many many years, but it was my wife who shot a deer some 40 years ago and shot off the jaw. I pert near wrecked our pickup out running this deer so that we could get him. I want you know that a deer shot like that can sure run like the Dickens. She wasn't shooting a muzzleloader which would've made it probably a tragedy because I'm sure he would have escaped.As Part of the test for hunter safety in Montana, they have to mark the correct spot to shoot broadside on four different animals. This applies to any kind of firearm including archery. Thank you for bringing this up to the front. I'm sure it's been discussed before but it sure doesn't hurt to bring it up again.
Squint
I try for both lungs, lower 1/2 of the chest. Your spot "D" is about right and, IMHO, a tad high for a heart shot from ground level. Hitting the heart is a bonus; but not worth risking meat off the shoulder.
I eat the heart, not the lungs.
I eat the heart, not the lungs.
Thanks for the data.
There is a problem using African cervids or bovids with North American cervids, as there is enough of a variation in anatomy that the question of shot placement is skewed. But at least the author was good enough to document all of those hunts.
https://www.bullet-behavior.com/for...ted/anatomy-and-how-it-affects-shot-placement
LD
HI, All .. I was once hunting and saw a yearling standing in the open and thought that it would make a great pet for the kids so i sneaked up and after a short struggle I had it secured but I soon discovered that some cowboy had shot it's bottom jaw off so I had to do the humane thing and end it's misery ... Some people have no Idea and don't know that if you cant make the shot , don't take it , should govern all shots a live game your work a the range should teach you what shots you can make and which you can't
The problem is whether or not one can "make" a head shot depends on the animal remaining still. A slight change of the angle of the skull can mean a lingering, lethal wound, such as a destroyed jaw, or a flesh wound that kills from infection. The error margin is vastly higher on the small target of the skull compared to the much larger broadside of the lungs.
LD
"Thanks for the data.
There is a problem using African cervids or bovids with North American cervids, as there is enough of a variation in anatomy that the question of shot placement is skewed. But at least the author was good enough to document all of those hunts."
https://www.bullet-behavior.com/for...ted/anatomy-and-how-it-affects-shot-placement
There is no "Problem" with the African animals being included. The data states where the shot hit/what organs were affected. It does not use the "spot indicators" that are shown by red and yellow dots on the deer pictures in the preceeding posts. A heart shot is a heart shot, a lung shot is a lung shot, a neck shot is a neck shot, etc. So the "hit" on the African species and subsequent effect is directly relevant to the overall data that includes North American and European species as well. Yes, it was correctly pointed out that species may have an anatomical difference in organ location, size or shape. However the data does not consider the "place on the body" where the bullet struck but rather the organ or structure that was hit. With a large enough sample the data will give an average (idea) of what is likely to happen when a deerosaurus is shot in the heart compared to when a kududactyl is shot through the heart, etc.....
There is a problem using African cervids or bovids with North American cervids, as there is enough of a variation in anatomy that the question of shot placement is skewed. But at least the author was good enough to document all of those hunts.
"https://www.bullet-behavior.com/for...ted/anatomy-and-how-it-affects-shot-placement
There is no "Problem" with the African animals being included. The data states where the shot hit/what organs were affected. It does not use the "spot indicators" that are shown by red and yellow dots on the deer pictures in the preceeding posts. A heart shot is a heart shot, a lung shot is a lung shot, a neck shot is a neck shot, etc. So the "hit" on the African species and subsequent effect is directly relevant to the overall data that includes North American and European species as well. Yes, it was correctly pointed out that species may have an anatomical difference in organ location, size or shape. However the data does not consider the "place on the body" where the bullet struck but rather the organ or structure that was hit. With a large enough sample the data will give an average (idea) of what is likely to happen when a deerosaurus is shot in the heart compared to when a kududactyl is shot through the heart, etc.....
hanshi
Cannon
I've hunted long enough to witness hits on or near the spine. Almost invariably the deer will drop right there. But unless the spine has actually been compromised by the shot, the deer will jump up and run. Often this happens within several seconds. But when the spine itself is hit the deer will go nowhere even though it is still quite alive. All in all, I tend to think we over analyse, worry and study too much minutia rather than simply practicing our shots and aiming for the most easily hit lethal area on game.
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Pump one through the shoulder blade/joint and DEAD. No running, no hobbling away! Just DRT.
Little ruined meat but very humane and for sure meat on the table.
Aiming spot is paper plate size ... = easy target to hit from almost anywhere.
Texas heart shots are messy ... just sayin!
Little ruined meat but very humane and for sure meat on the table.
Aiming spot is paper plate size ... = easy target to hit from almost anywhere.
Texas heart shots are messy ... just sayin!
But still a bigger target than the infamous ‘Texas Brain Shot’.
