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shot size
- Thread starter jim/wa
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What I use is as follows, doesn't mean it's right, it's just the way I do it...
#6 to #7-1/2 shot for rabbits, squirrels, grouse and pheasants...
#4 for ducks...
#2 or BB for geese...
As for the amount used, that depends greatly on what you are shooting the shot out of...
12 gauge will shoot 1 oz. to 1 1/2 oz. loads, whereas a 20 gauge will throw 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz....
A 28 gauge will shoot lighter loads still...
I can't safely recomend a load without first knowing what you are going to shoot the load out of...
Please advise everyone of the smoothbore you plan to use and we will be more than happy to share our favorite shot loads with you...
#6 to #7-1/2 shot for rabbits, squirrels, grouse and pheasants...
#4 for ducks...
#2 or BB for geese...
As for the amount used, that depends greatly on what you are shooting the shot out of...
12 gauge will shoot 1 oz. to 1 1/2 oz. loads, whereas a 20 gauge will throw 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz....
A 28 gauge will shoot lighter loads still...
I can't safely recomend a load without first knowing what you are going to shoot the load out of...
Please advise everyone of the smoothbore you plan to use and we will be more than happy to share our favorite shot loads with you...
20 gauge loads, here we go... :winking:
A good field load:
2 3/4 drams (75 grains) FFg
1 oz. shot (#6 or whatever)
1 heavy over powder card
1 half inch fiber wad
1 thin over shot card
This gives 1074 fps.
Heavy field load:
3 drams (82 grains) FFg
1 1/8 oz. shot (#6 or whatever)
1 heavy over powder card
1 half inch fiber wad
1 thin over shot card
This gives 1080 fps.
If you plan to use plastic wads, I can also give some loads for them...
Hope this helps...
A good field load:
2 3/4 drams (75 grains) FFg
1 oz. shot (#6 or whatever)
1 heavy over powder card
1 half inch fiber wad
1 thin over shot card
This gives 1074 fps.
Heavy field load:
3 drams (82 grains) FFg
1 1/8 oz. shot (#6 or whatever)
1 heavy over powder card
1 half inch fiber wad
1 thin over shot card
This gives 1080 fps.
If you plan to use plastic wads, I can also give some loads for them...
Hope this helps...
smokeblower
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 205
- Reaction score
- 0
I have shot 2 &1/2 oz #4 in front of 110 grains of ffGoex when checking the pattern on my 1842 smoothie. This is the first year I used a black powder gun turkey hunting. I limited out in six days, but we are over run with the birds here, not my hunting skills. I used the same charge behind a .69 cal ball and three .31 cal. balls to shoot the historic buck-n-ball load thet was so popular in the Civil War. I also used the same charge to fire twenty .31 cal balls into a paper target. My standard load is a lubed ball with out a patch on top of a thin overshot card, to keep the lube away from the powder, on top of 70 graing of ff. I sure wish we Tennessee hunters could use buck shot to deer hunt because twenty .31 cal balls is a power-killer at forty yards, but with the city slickers invading to hunt there would be too many hasty shots resulting in wounded and dying deer in the woods. A couple of many reasons I am glad I traded for this springfield 1842 by Armi-sport.
Guest
Smokeblower! What ball size do you use in that 1842, .69? You mention .69 ball. Is that the actual size. If so, doesn't the fouling make it hard to load after a while, being the same size as the bore.
: The buck and ball loads used by the military usually were(by the time of the civil war)a .656 ball and 3-000, which were .36 cal.)
: Earlier in history, at least till 1820, the ball size for their .69 muskets was .640, and a cst ball. After some time in the '20's the balls started to be swaged and increased in size to .65 to reduce some of the windage for improved accuracy. The increase to .650 gave a hit increase of 20% at 80 yds. on people-sized targets. Imagine what a cloth-patched .662 ball would have done for the accuracy. - 100% at 100 yds. instead of 50% probability.
: You loads are quite heavy for a .69(14 bore). Good thing it has a modern-made barrel. I don't think an original would like the "Over 1,000gr. loads" you're shooting with 110gr. 2F. The .69 rifled barel load was a 730gr. minnie with 70gr. 1F.,however that load did give well over 1,000fps. I'd expect Swiss would give that with 2F, but GOEX would probably require some 100gr. 2F to match it.
: Our shot load is more of a proof load that not, but does show the reduced pressure of the large bores. Your loads are getting up there, though.
: The buck and ball loads used by the military usually were(by the time of the civil war)a .656 ball and 3-000, which were .36 cal.)
: Earlier in history, at least till 1820, the ball size for their .69 muskets was .640, and a cst ball. After some time in the '20's the balls started to be swaged and increased in size to .65 to reduce some of the windage for improved accuracy. The increase to .650 gave a hit increase of 20% at 80 yds. on people-sized targets. Imagine what a cloth-patched .662 ball would have done for the accuracy. - 100% at 100 yds. instead of 50% probability.
: You loads are quite heavy for a .69(14 bore). Good thing it has a modern-made barrel. I don't think an original would like the "Over 1,000gr. loads" you're shooting with 110gr. 2F. The .69 rifled barel load was a 730gr. minnie with 70gr. 1F.,however that load did give well over 1,000fps. I'd expect Swiss would give that with 2F, but GOEX would probably require some 100gr. 2F to match it.
: Our shot load is more of a proof load that not, but does show the reduced pressure of the large bores. Your loads are getting up there, though.
Rocky Johnson
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2003
- Messages
- 658
- Reaction score
- 1
Jim I like #5 shot for rabbit & squirel in my black powder shotguns. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Jim,
Here an old M/L shotgunner's ditty from England:
"More powder, less lead - near shot, more spread.
"Less Powder, more lead - shoots far, kills dead."
By volume, I always use a little less FFg powder than shot. I use #6 shot for grouse and bunnies (and the occasional squirrel - though I prefer rifles for squirrel hunting).
The proper sequence for loading a muzzleloading shotgun is as follows:
black powder
over-powder (heavy card) wad
fiber cushion wad
optional shot (thin card) wad
shot
over-shot wad
Recommended loads are as follows: 20 gauge -- 65 grains of FFG black powder and 1 ounce of shot, 12 gauge -- 75 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/8 ounces of shot, and 10 gauge -- 85 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot. Muzzleloading shotguns can be loaded with patched round balls as well as shot. Use a .600 round ball for the 20 gauge, a .648 round ball for a 16 gauge, a .715 round ball for the 12 gauge and a .760 round ball for the 10 gauge.
When patterning a shotgun I use a scrap 1/2" plywood sheet section or even just cardboard and a putty knife to spread a thin layer of mud between shots. I is cheap, cheap, cheap.
Here an old M/L shotgunner's ditty from England:
"More powder, less lead - near shot, more spread.
"Less Powder, more lead - shoots far, kills dead."
By volume, I always use a little less FFg powder than shot. I use #6 shot for grouse and bunnies (and the occasional squirrel - though I prefer rifles for squirrel hunting).
The proper sequence for loading a muzzleloading shotgun is as follows:
black powder
over-powder (heavy card) wad
fiber cushion wad
optional shot (thin card) wad
shot
over-shot wad
Recommended loads are as follows: 20 gauge -- 65 grains of FFG black powder and 1 ounce of shot, 12 gauge -- 75 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/8 ounces of shot, and 10 gauge -- 85 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot. Muzzleloading shotguns can be loaded with patched round balls as well as shot. Use a .600 round ball for the 20 gauge, a .648 round ball for a 16 gauge, a .715 round ball for the 12 gauge and a .760 round ball for the 10 gauge.
When patterning a shotgun I use a scrap 1/2" plywood sheet section or even just cardboard and a putty knife to spread a thin layer of mud between shots. I is cheap, cheap, cheap.
Stump,
You may want to try using anouther "paterning board"?
I made a frame; (2) 1/2" dowels X 36"lg. Drill 1/8 hole 1/2" from ea. end, hang clothspin from 4" string through ea. of 4 holes in both dowels, On 1 dowel hang 1 oz. sinker beside ea. of both clothspins.
Using $0.99 cheap plastic drop cloths, cut into 36X36 sqrs.
Hang unweighted dowel and attatch plastic, on bottom end weighted dowel to hold taunt.
This way you can tag and save ea. group for comparison. I find it really handy to be able to go back and see varying results.
Just thought someone maybe interested in this.
You may want to try using anouther "paterning board"?
I made a frame; (2) 1/2" dowels X 36"lg. Drill 1/8 hole 1/2" from ea. end, hang clothspin from 4" string through ea. of 4 holes in both dowels, On 1 dowel hang 1 oz. sinker beside ea. of both clothspins.
Using $0.99 cheap plastic drop cloths, cut into 36X36 sqrs.
Hang unweighted dowel and attatch plastic, on bottom end weighted dowel to hold taunt.
This way you can tag and save ea. group for comparison. I find it really handy to be able to go back and see varying results.
Just thought someone maybe interested in this.
shooter575
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2004
- Messages
- 49
- Reaction score
- 2
Daryl
I shoot comp with a smoothbore in the N-SSA. Most people are using a ball with .006 to .010 windage.We are not allowed a paper or cloth patch.Most just dip the balls in a melted hard lube. You can get off 6-10 shots before you need to wipe the bore.That is ok because our rapid fire events are only 3 minutes
Jim
I shoot comp with a smoothbore in the N-SSA. Most people are using a ball with .006 to .010 windage.We are not allowed a paper or cloth patch.Most just dip the balls in a melted hard lube. You can get off 6-10 shots before you need to wipe the bore.That is ok because our rapid fire events are only 3 minutes
Jim
shooter575
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2004
- Messages
- 49
- Reaction score
- 2
Windage is the diffrence between bore and ball size in a smooth bore. I have a .690 bore and shoot a .684 ball.
It is a old term.Mainly used with artillery.
Jim
It is a old term.Mainly used with artillery.
Jim
Guest
In the .69 rifle, with .012 rifling, I used a .684 ball and .015 to .020 patch, whatever was on hand. In a .69 musket with patch, a .662 bal and .020 patch should be about right.
: The issued military paper ctgs. of the 1800 period had 165gr. Musket grade powder and a .64 cast ball. when the sixe was raised to .65 to increase accuracy, the balls were swaged to prevent sprues from jamming against the bore when loading and to increase accuracy due to no protrusions or air voids inside the balls. They were well aware tht excess windage decreased accuracy but fought against ease for laoding for extended periods of time. There were many instances where thousnads of rounds were expended on a single encounter with Indians by military work parties. There was no time to clean a fouled bore as would happen with less windage and paper ctgs. A tight paper ctg.s would have given much better accuracy, but would have fouled excessively for combat.
Daryl
: The issued military paper ctgs. of the 1800 period had 165gr. Musket grade powder and a .64 cast ball. when the sixe was raised to .65 to increase accuracy, the balls were swaged to prevent sprues from jamming against the bore when loading and to increase accuracy due to no protrusions or air voids inside the balls. They were well aware tht excess windage decreased accuracy but fought against ease for laoding for extended periods of time. There were many instances where thousnads of rounds were expended on a single encounter with Indians by military work parties. There was no time to clean a fouled bore as would happen with less windage and paper ctgs. A tight paper ctg.s would have given much better accuracy, but would have fouled excessively for combat.
Daryl
Guest
Looks as if someone has chewed on some of those, Musketman. & some appear to be somewhat larger than others - either optical illusuion or some .715's or .735's mixed in.
: I obtained a bag of .648's just for accuracy comparrison purposes if/when I get a .69 instead of a .75.
: I'll know better in a couple weeks - depends if the insurance company want's to cut me off pension or not. If I could work, I woudn't be concerned. As little as the pension is, it still helps keep the wolves at bay.
: OH- your .69 was rifled, wasnt' it. That makes a big difference in ball size, seeing as there is a place for the patch to go. With a smoothbored .69, a .678 ball & .012 patch would require compression of the ball by .012". The flat sides from compression against the sides of the bore "MIGHT" hurt accuracy out around 100yds. At that range, the ball's spherocity might be a big factor in maintaining straight-line travel.
Daryl
: I obtained a bag of .648's just for accuracy comparrison purposes if/when I get a .69 instead of a .75.
: I'll know better in a couple weeks - depends if the insurance company want's to cut me off pension or not. If I could work, I woudn't be concerned. As little as the pension is, it still helps keep the wolves at bay.
: OH- your .69 was rifled, wasnt' it. That makes a big difference in ball size, seeing as there is a place for the patch to go. With a smoothbored .69, a .678 ball & .012 patch would require compression of the ball by .012". The flat sides from compression against the sides of the bore "MIGHT" hurt accuracy out around 100yds. At that range, the ball's spherocity might be a big factor in maintaining straight-line travel.
Daryl
Wait a minute . . . ? Those are malted milk ball Whoppers!
I used a 0.648" ball with 0.017" tick in my 16 ga/0.662" fusil and a 0.715" w/0.017" in my 12 ga/0.729" single barrel. You guys shoot a loose ball!
I used a 0.648" ball with 0.017" tick in my 16 ga/0.662" fusil and a 0.715" w/0.017" in my 12 ga/0.729" single barrel. You guys shoot a loose ball!
Guest
LOOSE??- perhaps, but a .662 was the normal ball for 14 bore smoothbores, with a .678 being right in Forsyth's day for the 14 bore rifles with patch. Both Musketman and I chose .684 for the .69 rifles. The common choice was a ball 1 bore size smaller for rifles and 2 bore sizes for a sporting smoothbore with ctgs. or (approx)3 bore sizes for military ctgs.
: The military was the one shooting loose balls, ie: .64 and .65 in the 14bore(.69cal) muskets, not us.
: Your .648 for the 16bore with a .007 patch will have .000 compression for a perfect fit without deforming the ball. With the .017 patch and the attendent excessive compression, your accuracy at 100yds. will be considerably larger than 8", I presume. With a bit of work might, perhaps, you might shrink your groups, striving for less deformation of the ball, yet with a patch thick enough for the fouling.
: We've been able to get the 20 bores and larger to shoot into the 8" category at 100yds. which I feel is max range for this group size on large deer. On smaller deer in the 200 lb. bracket, I'd think 80 yds. would be about max.with 5" groups.
: We did find it difficult to get the small bores, ie: 20 and 16 to shoot into such small groups at 100yds. but it is possible with much trial on patch composition and size. At times, plastic cups from shotshell wads will help - at other times, they imcrease groups.
: I even had a turn of the century doublegun, 12 bore that I shortened the tubes to 24"& resighted. The barrels were marked Whitworth Fluid Steel & were originally imp. mod. chokes of .702" I.D. at the muzzles and .727 for bores. At 24" and with BP loads, it would make the 8" circle with 2 lefts and 2 rights - perfect for moose or anything on this planet, within it's effective range. I used the light "African" load for the .725 balls(original old mould fitting the bores perfectly) at 150gr. 1F ICI powder. The Full charge of 193gr. listed in WW Greeners book Kicked like blazes and other than an initial right and left, wasn't used. Those two heavy loads both impacted the 10" gong at 100meters. The elevation nor horizontal dispertion didn't change from the lighter load. This was on a 2 1/2" thick plate that a 7mm or 300 mag wouldn't do more than barely swing. Those 650gr. balls had it dancing on it's chains.
Daryl
: The military was the one shooting loose balls, ie: .64 and .65 in the 14bore(.69cal) muskets, not us.
: Your .648 for the 16bore with a .007 patch will have .000 compression for a perfect fit without deforming the ball. With the .017 patch and the attendent excessive compression, your accuracy at 100yds. will be considerably larger than 8", I presume. With a bit of work might, perhaps, you might shrink your groups, striving for less deformation of the ball, yet with a patch thick enough for the fouling.
: We've been able to get the 20 bores and larger to shoot into the 8" category at 100yds. which I feel is max range for this group size on large deer. On smaller deer in the 200 lb. bracket, I'd think 80 yds. would be about max.with 5" groups.
: We did find it difficult to get the small bores, ie: 20 and 16 to shoot into such small groups at 100yds. but it is possible with much trial on patch composition and size. At times, plastic cups from shotshell wads will help - at other times, they imcrease groups.
: I even had a turn of the century doublegun, 12 bore that I shortened the tubes to 24"& resighted. The barrels were marked Whitworth Fluid Steel & were originally imp. mod. chokes of .702" I.D. at the muzzles and .727 for bores. At 24" and with BP loads, it would make the 8" circle with 2 lefts and 2 rights - perfect for moose or anything on this planet, within it's effective range. I used the light "African" load for the .725 balls(original old mould fitting the bores perfectly) at 150gr. 1F ICI powder. The Full charge of 193gr. listed in WW Greeners book Kicked like blazes and other than an initial right and left, wasn't used. Those two heavy loads both impacted the 10" gong at 100meters. The elevation nor horizontal dispertion didn't change from the lighter load. This was on a 2 1/2" thick plate that a 7mm or 300 mag wouldn't do more than barely swing. Those 650gr. balls had it dancing on it's chains.
Daryl
On the nosey. If I can offhand group an inch for every ten yards I'm a happy fuselier. When I'm having a 'hot' day I might drop three in 3" at 50 yards, but that is rare. I do similar with a rolled tube of onionskin paper used to make a cartridge (the ball end having been dipped in melted beeswax & Crisco mix. Heck, my bayonet lug 'front sight' (that I try to ignore) occludes two feet at 100 yards. If I'm planning on action past 75 yards I carry a rifle.
Guest
Lubing paper cartidges certainly improves fouling reduction AND windage reduction, all in one. It's a good way to load. Are you using .017" patch INSIDE the paper ctg? If so, doesn't the paper cut off when loading?
: You current accuracy certainly seems to hold up, to 75yds. or so.
: Some have filed the sides of the bayontte lug to front sigth slimness to measurably increase accuracy. Grooving the breech/tang joint also helps in a big way. As well, sighting in the barrel to shoot to these 'sights' really helps also. It takes very tiny 'bends' to get the long barrels shooting to a comfortable sighting system. Like you, we've found offhand accuracy at 25 to 50 yds. to match most rifle shooting at the same range, even when only using the bayonette lug as mfg'rd. Turning this system into rear(grooved) sight and thin lug or a front sight really helps the 100yd. accuracy. When shooting animals like moose, the smoothbored large bore, gives up noting to a rifle & is actaully better than anything of smaller bore, to it's maximum range, that is. Out of more than a dozen moose and a few elk, none have been shot at more than 95yds to 100yds. The smoothbored musket of descent bore is all that's really necessary.
: This is why smoothbores were the preferred 'carry' gun in the 1820's on up for quite a spell - even in the plains and western mountains, Canada and the U.S. The versatility of fine shot, ball, or large shot and ball was a very real advantage in these large bored guns. 100gr. to 120gr. of 2F GOEX does a marvelous job on moose, even though it has 250fps less velocity than 150 years ago.
: BTW- when the US government had the older, larger bored guns converted to the minnie system with their reduced powder charges and heavier minnies, they increased their military value, but decreased their game killing efficiency. The slow moving minnies were poor killers of our very big game. It isn't strange that they found the same thing in Africa.
: You current accuracy certainly seems to hold up, to 75yds. or so.
: Some have filed the sides of the bayontte lug to front sigth slimness to measurably increase accuracy. Grooving the breech/tang joint also helps in a big way. As well, sighting in the barrel to shoot to these 'sights' really helps also. It takes very tiny 'bends' to get the long barrels shooting to a comfortable sighting system. Like you, we've found offhand accuracy at 25 to 50 yds. to match most rifle shooting at the same range, even when only using the bayonette lug as mfg'rd. Turning this system into rear(grooved) sight and thin lug or a front sight really helps the 100yd. accuracy. When shooting animals like moose, the smoothbored large bore, gives up noting to a rifle & is actaully better than anything of smaller bore, to it's maximum range, that is. Out of more than a dozen moose and a few elk, none have been shot at more than 95yds to 100yds. The smoothbored musket of descent bore is all that's really necessary.
: This is why smoothbores were the preferred 'carry' gun in the 1820's on up for quite a spell - even in the plains and western mountains, Canada and the U.S. The versatility of fine shot, ball, or large shot and ball was a very real advantage in these large bored guns. 100gr. to 120gr. of 2F GOEX does a marvelous job on moose, even though it has 250fps less velocity than 150 years ago.
: BTW- when the US government had the older, larger bored guns converted to the minnie system with their reduced powder charges and heavier minnies, they increased their military value, but decreased their game killing efficiency. The slow moving minnies were poor killers of our very big game. It isn't strange that they found the same thing in Africa.
Guest
Before I got into blacvk powder I killed a bunch of
Wood Ducks and Mallards with the standard 'trap" load of 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot at 1200 f.p.s. Of course this was jump shooting from puddles and streams, not long range pass shooting.
I gave up on the msaller 7 1/2 shot on bunnies as they were too full of lead to suit my molars.
I like 1 oz. of 6 shot as a good general load in 12 and 20 bore at around 1000 to 1100 f.p.s.
I'm in the process of working up .62 smoothie loads in the G.M. drop in barrel, having just gotten a bunch of 0.5 inch cushion wads, over shot and powder wads and just for grins some plastic 1 oz. shot cups.
Wood Ducks and Mallards with the standard 'trap" load of 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 shot at 1200 f.p.s. Of course this was jump shooting from puddles and streams, not long range pass shooting.
I gave up on the msaller 7 1/2 shot on bunnies as they were too full of lead to suit my molars.
I like 1 oz. of 6 shot as a good general load in 12 and 20 bore at around 1000 to 1100 f.p.s.
I'm in the process of working up .62 smoothie loads in the G.M. drop in barrel, having just gotten a bunch of 0.5 inch cushion wads, over shot and powder wads and just for grins some plastic 1 oz. shot cups.
