Shot the Philly Derringer today to check penetration.

[new2bp]

Out of curiosity, how about loading it with some larger bird shot (#4-ish) and seeing what kind of spread you get? Buddy used to carry one of the good American Derringers in 45lc/410, he'd load it with #6 birdshot loads figuring nothing he could use in it would reliably stop someone with one shot but a face full of bird shot should incapacitate an attacker and allow him to get away...

 

[nick_1]

and lincoln likly would have lived if the doctors were not such hacks. pretty sure it did not penetrate the skull.

 

[hawkeye2]

and lincoln likly would have lived if the doctors were not such hacks. pretty sure it did not penetrate the skull.

Given the knowledge of the times the doctors can't be called hacks and there was no way he could have survived his wound in 1865. The ball traveled most of the way through his brain and drove a plug of bone into his brain too. Dr. John Lattimer did extensive research on the Abraham Lincoln assassination and the illustration is from his book on Lincoln & Kennedy.

 

[toot]

I am tempted about using a derringer as a belly gun for self defense. It sure fits in the pocket really well. Please tell us "country folk" what a T-111 is?

it is TEXTURE ONE ELEVEN.

 

[Dave Fox]

Not aboard on using a percussion pistol as backup. Most flint pocket pistols, problematical because their tiny flints and priming charges made discharge haphazard, at least had a safety, a sliding lever that both locked the center-hung hammer and frizzen in place and had to be released before the weapon could be discharged (see photograph). I don't recall seeing such a device on any percussion derringer-like weapon. So: one thrusts a capped percussion pistol in ones pocket either at half cock or hammer down on a sensitive cap and muzzle likely pointed at ones crotch. See any problem there?

 

[earlwb]

Maybe use a nipple/cap cover/protector. But you have to remember to flick it off before you fire it though. But practice to make it automatic with the reflexes is a good way to do it. It is not unlike you practicing flicking the safety off on a modern gun to fire it.

the muzzleloader version of a .41 caliber derringer was close to being the same as a .41 Rimfire short cartridge version. There are some references and tests done years ago that showed the .41 rimfire short cartridge was more powerful than people thought. Ballistics isn’t something to write home about though. It used a little over 8 grains of BP with a 130 grain bullet. Depending on the source, muzzle velocity was between 425fps to over 685fps. I suspect there was quite a bit difference due to the age of the ammo and or the type of BP used. But even the low speed rounds went all the way through a wet five inch thick phone book and a piece of thin plywood too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Short

 

[Dave Fox]

Maybe use a nipple/cap cover/protector. But you have to remember to flick it off before you fire it though. But practice to make it automatic with the reflexes is a good way to do it. It is not unlike you practicing flicking the safety off on a modern gun to fire it.

the muzzleloader version of a .41 caliber derringer was close to being the same as a .41 Rimfire short cartridge version. There are some references and tests done years ago that showed the .41 rimfire short cartridge was more powerful than people thought. Ballistics isn’t something to write home about though. It used a little over 8 grains of BP with a 130 grain bullet. Depending on the source, muzzle velocity was between 425fps to over 685fps. I suspect there was quite a bit difference due to the age of the ammo and or the type of BP used. But even the low speed rounds went all the way through a wet five inch thick phone book and a piece of thin plywood too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Short

 

[Packrat]

From some reading, doctors think Lincoln could have been saved today, the theory is the doctors, then, caused as much damage as the projectile

 

[Rifleman1776]

I am tempted about using a derringer as a belly gun for self defense. It sure fits in the pocket really well. Please tell us "country folk" what a T-111 is?

I love using ml rifles and pistols. We are preserving history. But, for current day actual self-defense it would be foolish to not use a modern gun.

 

[Eutycus]

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

 

[Dave Fox]

Maybe use a nipple/cap cover/protector. But you have to remember to flick it off before you fire it though. But practice to make it automatic with the reflexes is a good way to do it. It is not unlike you practicing flicking the safety off on a modern gun to fire it.

the muzzleloader version of a .41 caliber derringer was close to being the same as a .41 Rimfire short cartridge version. There are some references and tests done years ago that showed the .41 rimfire short cartridge was more powerful than people thought. Ballistics isn’t something to write home about though. It used a little over 8 grains of BP with a 130 grain bullet. Depending on the source, muzzle velocity was between 425fps to over 685fps. I suspect there was quite a bit difference due to the age of the ammo and or the type of BP used. But even the low speed rounds went all the way through a wet five inch thick phone book and a piece of thin plywood too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Short

Respectfully have problems picturing a "nipple/cap protector" which one could flick off with the same hand one is drawing and cocking a weapon that's already grossly inferior to what's currently on the market for pocket carry.

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

At derringer velocities, expansion would not be a factor.

 

[Eutycus]

Modern medicine may have been able to keep Lincoln alive, but didn't he linger for several hours as a vegetable anyway?They'd never be able to restore damaged brain tissue even today.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

Soft lead might not penetrate heavy clothing. Even modern pistols with certain hollow point bullets cannot make it through thick wool coats, etc.

 

[morehops52]

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

If you start with a large caliber projectile you've already taken care of expansion. A .440 ball has twice the surface area than a .31 ball. The deeper the penetration, the more likely you'll hit something important.

 

[nick_1]

I was simply relating the common story that may or may not have any merit. I was never even aware that the ball penetrated Lincolns brain. i had thought that it was lodged up against the base of his skull behind the ear but not actually in his brain . i had also heard that the doctors bled him to let out the bad blood. Shows how common knowledge stories are not always accurate...

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I admired a Lincoln type Deringer in the display case at Gettysburg. It was a damned cute little shooter.

 

[SOLANCO]

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

I would be tempted to try to approximate one of the modern sky marshall bullets. Some sort of hard plastic shell filled with lots of little steel balls. It is, after all, self defense. Not jousting.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Nick, you might have been thinking of Garfield's assasination. The doctors bungled that real bad. He could have lived, and he was shot with a much more powerful revolver.

 

[hawkeye2]

I was simply relating the common story that may or may not have any merit. I was never even aware that the ball penetrated Lincolns brain. i had thought that it was lodged up against the base of his skull behind the ear but not actually in his brain . i had also heard that the doctors bled him to let out the bad blood. Shows how common knowledge stories are not always accurate...

They bled Washington, not Lincoln but one of the attending doctors put his finger in the wound and felt around which probably would have lead to a massive infection. There are theories that had it happened today his life could have been saved and at the extreme end of that scale that he could have lived a normal life.

 

[hawkeye2]

Would you guys go for expansion or penetration? In other words pure lead or wheel weights.

I understand the ball Booth used was made of Britannia metal which is a pewter like alloy and much harder than lead.