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Phillip Allen

32 Cal.
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Jan 28, 2007
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With appologies, I am searching for anyone's experience loading RB into brass shotshells. I am going to use black powder only. Nothing seems to fit right and I can't get (I feel) good ignition. My loads have been between 80 and 90 grains of goex Fg with sabot slugs (the mould I alread had) and shot cups...doesn't work very well.

Also...as I intend to get a RB mould I wonder about ball dia...I wonder if .715 would work better than the .69...next size up is .735 which is a tight fit without patch (I even consedered loading each shell as if I were loading down the muzzle...with greased patch)

the shotgun is cylinder bored...no choke
 
Philip,
I have used .690 patched balls in a CVA double muzzleloader. I have never tried round balls in my Lefever, Damascus twist choke full and modified. I was afraid of unwinding my barrels at the muzzle. Are your barrels choked? You would want to use a ball that was not over the size of either choke.
I can't see patched balls woring in a cartridge gun for this reason. Unless your cartridge goes all the way to the origin of the forcing cone there is the slight possiblity of your patch being stripped off your ball. This is just my thinking. There might be wiser souls here who will comment. I don't mind being corrected.
As far as I know none of the old 'punkin' ball loads were ever patched.
volatpluvia
 
I've loaded .700 balls in plastic 12 ga cases, using 70 gr 3f and fiber cushion wads, then crimping the case shut. It worked very well. perhaps you could use an overshot card to hold everything in the brass case. the hard part is finding the right diameter overpowder wads to fit inside the case.
 
One thing to keep in mind when loading BP into a brass case....NO AIR SPACE. BP works totally different than smokeless powders. You will need to put in powder and fill the space with an over powder wad, filler(such as corn meal)over powder wad and then the payload.

just a caution!
 
BP cartridge loading, using Brass Casings, requires you use a wad that is one gauge LARGER than the bore of the barrels. I am using 11 gauge wads in my brass hulls for my 12 gauge loads. I ordered them from Circle Fly, which makes the wads for everyone else, it seems. Many suppliers carry their wads. You may have to use several of the 1/2" thick cushion wads to fill the space in the casings, in you want to seat the round ball out at the end, like some old time rifle rounds look. However, the brass hulls are originally designed to shoot shot, and using 2 OS cards( poke off-center holes in them to let air out and aligned them so the holes are at 12 and 6 o'clock in the casing) to hold the Round ball in the casing. As to what size ball works best, tht will depend on your particular gun. As with MLers, you have to measure both bores, with calipers, and then work up loads for each barrel individually. That is part of the fun of owning these guns. Don't expect the barrels to be " regulated " to shoot round balls to the same POA, or to have the same POI. The guns are made to shoot shot patterns, and not RB loads. you may find one or both barrels shoot RBs well. Or you may find one barrel does well and the other doesn't.

Most shotgun chambers have a pronounced shoulder before the throat of the barrel begins, and the throat is pretty short- often only half an inch. When working up loads in a deer slug barrel years ago, I relieved the throat, and got rid of almost all the shoulder before the throat, using a tapered Throating reamer. You can buy them from Brownell's. Many gunsmiths that work on competition shotguns have them.

By getting rid of the shoulder, and lengthening the forcing cone into a more gently sloped bottle " neck ", I damaged the slubs less, and my groups are outstanding! I shot 3 slugs( winchester, 2 3/4" Foster style) into the center "X" of a human silhouette target, off-hand, using iron sights, with all three holes touching in a clover leaf, at 50 yards. I handed the gun to my friend, and Joe fired the last 2 rounds at the same target, and hit just above my three slugs, leaving a group that was only about 2.5 inches across, and easily covered by the palm of the hand. Since he was not used to firing slug barrels, much less one with rifle sights on it, I did not expect his two rounds to go to the same point of Impact as mine did. However, He was closer and tighter than even I expected.

For that reason, I don't hesitate to suggest such a modification be considered by you for your DB shotgun, if you plan to shoot RBs out of the barrels on a steady basis.
 
I'm not using a double. I am using a pump with 18 inch cylinder-bored smooth barrel and rifle sights. the muzzle mikes at .730 but the gun is chambered for 3" mags and I'm using 2.5" brass shells.

It is my intention to load 11 gage nitro over powder cards with about 50 pounds of compression (MEC 600 jr loader). I will then use enough 11 gage fillers to bring the ball to the point where a nice roll crimp (roll crimp die on a RCBS Ruckchucker) will hold the bare ball in place...tightly. Filler will be considered dependending on how things "stack" up.

the throat releaving sounds like a possibility...
 
If you do a roll crimp on those brass casings, they will split and wear out within a few shots. Either you have to anneal the brass mouths of the casings, or replace these expensive items. You are much better off holding the RB in the casing with 2 OS cards. Check the length of the Brass Casings. They will be the length of a 2 3/4" casing when its opened up! Sometimes they are actually longer. They will fit in most 3 inch chambers, but they may have difficulty cycling through the magazine and action.

I have seen brass hulls in cartridge collections where the OS card were glued into the casings. They used " isinglass " in the old days, but any white glue or epoxy will work well enough today. I don't think the more expensive epoxy is necessary, if you use 2 OS cards, nor do I think it bonds with the brass or the cards better than does a white glue. The 2 OS cards will keep the RB from shifting in the casing, while the glue helps to moisture proof the casings for field use.

Oh, You can try loading these in a MEC press, and put all that pressure on the wad with the press, but I don't think it works the same as with a plastic wad, and I believe you will have to adjust your press for the different Volume of powder used when shooting BP rather than the smaller volume of Smokeless. Plastic wads are specifically designed for this compression stroke.

I hand load my Brass hulls, using a 5/8" dowel rod to tamp the wads down in place. If you figure out how to load these on a Mec press, let the rest of us know, too. Thanks. :thumbsup:
 
I use the MEc because there is a gage to measure the compression...adjustable too but I just read the gage till I achieve the poundage wanted.

It is Magtech brass and they list the length as just under 2.5 inches...BTW I do know how to anneal the brass and have been loading metalics since the middle '60's. I think I can space the ball to where a minimum of crimp will be needed...I am careful with my brass
 
I know men who use the roll crimp to hold in the OS cards, along with using glue. I just decided that using 2 OS cards did as good a job of holding the RB in place as using a roll crimp.

I didn't suggest that YOU didn't know how to anneal brass, or hadn't done it. There are other readers here, and I was merely pointing out what will be needed if you pursue your method of loading. My method gets rid of that process, and saves the brass. As to using the MEC press, That press is designed to load plastic wads, in tapered plastic casings. The wads are designed to go down so far in the casing to take into account the tapir angles. Different wads are recommended for use with different manufactured hulls. The press takes into account the amount of space used by various powder charges recommended in reloading manuals. None of the powder charges takes up as much volume Space in a casing as does Black Powder. And Brass hulls have MORE space at the base of the casing where the powder goes. In fact, some of the powder is actually behind the mouth of the primer hole, which leads to the powder being ignited at the front of the charge, and burning towards the rear, rather than the reverse, which we expect in MLers.This takes a toll on the OP wad, and mandates using a good hard, 1/8 thick OP wad on top fo the powder charge. That 12 gauge ball will weight about 1 1/4 oz. A 3 dram load of FFg( 83 grains) will give it a velocity of 1035 fps at the muzzle.

Compare that volumn of black powder, using a glass or plastic tube for visibility, with whatever load of smokeless powder you use in reloading modern shotgun casings. Then remember that you are loading an 11 gauge casing, not a 12 gauge casing.

Best wishes to all. :hatsoff:
 
I wasn't upset at allo and yes, we should write with the novice in mind...you were right.

Black powder takes up a lot of room of course and only requires one nitro/felt cushion/sabot and slug (didn't work well) and an opver shot card to take up all the space.

I place a solid spacer on top of the nitro card before compressing the charge then take it out and add the cushion and slug...that way the gage on the MEC works
 
It's me again...I'm still hoping for feed back on ball diameter...I think I've got the rest figured out.

Muzzle dia is close to .730 and the cheap moulds seem to go from .715 to .735 in one jump unless I've missed something somewhere...(no problem getting either diameter to fit in the brass and feed) I've ordered some cast .715's to try before buying that mould...we'll see
 
What is the inside diameter of you brass casing? Mine are .763", making them unsuitable for holding a .715 ball, or even a .730 ball without using a very heavy cloth patch around them.

If I were going to try to load RB in brass casings, I would be using the 715 ball, with a thick, denim patch, that would be cut square, and the ends folded over the front of the ball, then put 2 OS cards down on the PRB to hold them in the casing. The OS cards would help to hold the patching around the ball as it passes through the throat in front of your chamber, so that the patch would help center the ball in the barrel. The gas seals would be provided by the OP wads behind it. The OS cards, being very light, and having a hole in each to allow air to separate them, will fall away from the ball within a couple of feet of the muzzle, allowing the air to get into and under those folded corners and take the cloth patch off the ball, too.
 
I don't think so in guns with a forcing cone in front of the chamber. Most cartridge breechloaders have some kind of shoulder and forcing cone in front of the chamber. The forcing cone and chamber are larger in diameter than the bore size. That fact will allow and filler you put around the shot to fall Behind the ball, letting the ball rattle down the barrel. To get good accurate groups, you need to protect a smoothbore from leading( Lead streaks) and a bare ball rattling down the barrel will leave streaks every where it touches. The fitst shot may hit the target. The second is going to be off, and the third and subsequent shots, fired from a barrel that has not first been cleaned of the lead deposits, will open the group further. I have a 20 gauge fowler I am using to shoot PRB in. My 12 ga. DB ML shotgun, and my old exposed hammer, breechloading DB 12 ga. are used with shot only. I use the brass casings in the old exposed hammer gun. The brass casings make a nice sound as they enter the chambers. kThunk!
 
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