Shotgun patterns low

[TreeMan]

I have a Pedersoli Mortimer shotgun. I have my load perfected and get really good patterns. The problem is that if I hold a sight picture (head down on the stock and only see the bead) that I’m used to with modern shotguns my patterns are 1.5 ft low at 25 yards. I’ve read mention of “heads up” shooting in guns styled after English Fowler’s. Is this a thing that was normal? To hit on target I have to hold my head straight up and I see all the barrel Length and feel like I’m pointed to the moon. Seems like this barrel or a barrel on a mossberg 500 would both shoot the same using a bead sight. The way the stock fits my cheek does make it very difficult to tuck and hold a fine bead and forces you to hold your head straight up. Is the heads up shooting/sighting and seeing all the barrel correct to this period for a shotgun or do I need to whack my barrel on a tree to bend it? (JK) No need to suggest a taller bead because it would need to be a one inch tall bead to get it on target.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Raise your eye. Try a pad on the stock. They are period correct as well.

 

[TreeMan]

Raise your eye. Try a pad on the stock. They are period correct as well.

Oh I can shoot it just fine but it just feels very unnatural compared to shooting a modern shotgun. The Mortimer is not something you can hand off to a friend and let them shoot it without a big explanation of how and why to aim with the full length of the barrel in your sight picture. I was more curious as to if this style of heads up sight picture is normal with a This type of shotgun compared to modern shotguns. I have a half dozen modern shotguns and when your shoot them you sight with a fine bead, head/cheek tucked and you don’t see any barrel length between your eye and the bead. The physics of a tube shooting shot with a bead sight would seem to be the same with modern or this Mortimer but evidently it doesn’t work out they away. It’s different and confusing.

 

[Brokennock]

The pad is just to keep your head up so it feels like your normal cheek weld.
There is a method of lightly, and minutely, filing the edge of the muzzles to change point of impact the was a traditional method of regulating the barrels of a double gun. @Britsmoothy and a couple others here have had success with it, and can explain how to do it better than I can. Many here go nuts at the mention of doing it and would seem to rather take their chances wedging their barrel in the fork of a tree and hauling on it to bend it in the right direction. Not sure what they do if they bend it too far. By filing that tiny bit off, if you go too far, you can always file it square again, we are talking almost unperceptible amounts of metal.being removed.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I had a Mortimer too. They have to be shot head up. That's how it was done way back when. It not so bad. I just looked at the bird and shot at it. It does work. The other theory is that that style of shooting suits driven shooting well where upon the birds are coming towards you. I can vouch for that also.

The Mortimer has quite a thick muzzle so I don't recommend filing across the muzzle. However, if you wish to adjust the muzzle you can increase the bevel of the crown. In your case if you desire the pattern to come down some first look at the bore bead up. We can call the bead up 12oclock. So from 12oclock increase the crown/bevelling to 3oclock and opposite down towards 9oclock but gradually reducing to nothing removed the closer you get to 3&9oclock....go test....when you're done polish the job well to aid against rusting and aid future polishing in case of tarnishing.
The whole principal revolves around letting the gasses escape a fraction earlier on one side of the circumference.
Somehow this seems to steer the shot column in the opposite direction from the relieving work.
In the Mortimer's thick barrel a dremal type tool could do the initial work. Finish after testing.

Report back please.

B.

 

[smo]

Gavin, as I mentioned in your other thread , "maybe" you need to have someone bend the barrel.
I would not recommend using a tree fork as indicated above, however many have been done successfully that way.

One of the Clubs I shoot at has a "jig" made for bending / flexing the barrel.

It is done slowly and carefully in a controlled manner.
In which the barrel is slightly maneuvered in the proper direction to bring the load more on target.

Most barrels are taken slightly past the required amount due to the flex in the steel this allows them to flex back once the tension is removed.

If it's taken too far, simply flex it back the other direction...

Have you shot any roundballs out of the gun? If so, do they print low as well?

 

[Britsmoothy]

I certainly do not recommend bending the Mortimer barrel. It will bend at the wedding ring. Also by the degree the owner requires it will be a substantial amount and clearly visible everytime he looks!

 

[smo]

I will admit , I had never seen a Mortimer barrel bent .

Therefore I retract my comments.

I have seen several bent that had wedding brands successfully, just not this particular style.

Brits, With the amount he is low. Will filing the muzzle as you mentioned bring the the pattern up 1 1/2 feet at 25 yards?

Does it have the same effect on a round ball?

 

[Britsmoothy]

I will admit , I had never seen a Mortimer barrel bent .

Therefore I retract my comments.

I have seen several bent that had wedding brands successfully, just not this particular style.

Brits, With the amount he is low. Will filing the muzzle as you mentioned bring the the pattern up 1 1/2 feet at 25 yards?

Does it have the same effect on a round ball?

I got a few times about a foot of adjustment for very little work really.
I have seen it work with ball from smooth bores also.
I have said it before that I have looked across the muzzles of many an old double gun and seen clearly shall we say....not square cut muzzles and some with distinct shaping!
I am also of the opinion as to the original purpose of filing the muzzles commonly seen on German Jaeger type rifles! I may be wrong as I often am but I believe it was to allow for some subtle regulation!

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Holding your head low & sighting on the bead like you are aiming a rifle may be good for shooting turkey standing still on the ground, but a very poor technique for flying targets. Your eyes should be focused on the target with the barrel in your peripheral vision only. The "heads up" method, as you call it, is the proper technique as it allows a natural, instinctive sight picture & will bring your POI up to where it should be. Just my opinion based on shooting over a half million clay targets at the skeet range.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

An English gentleman once told me that you shoot a fowler with your head up; the English only bow their heads to The Queen.

Britmoothy? Any historical verification?

ADK Bigfoot

 

[E. B. Leland]

I had an unmentionable shot gun that was doing the same thing. It was not a high value gun and I had heard about the muzzle adjustment and decided to try it. With a hardened scraper, I went to the range and regulated it exactly as Britsmoothy suggested. Very pleasing results with only a few minutes effort...just be patient and test often.

 

[Britsmoothy]

An English gentleman once told me that you shoot a fowler with your head up; the English only bow their heads to The Queen.

Britmoothy? Any historical verification?

ADK Bigfoot

I forget where I read it sir. I remember the illustrations too.

 

[nhmoose]

Hint it is not a modern gun. Learn to shoot it heads up like it was made for. You adjust to the gun this time.

It gives you a built in excuse for missing!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Hint it is not a modern gun. Learn to shoot it heads up like it was made for. You adjust to the gun this time.

It gives you a built in excuse for missing!

To be honest that's how I shot mine and it was fine. It even felt quite natural.

 

[FishDFly]

Google:

Lee Shaver and contact him.

 

[Eterry]

I had a Mortimer too. They have to be shot head up. That's how it was done way back when. It not so bad. I just looked at the bird and shot at it. It does work. The other theory is that that style of shooting suits driven shooting well where upon the birds are coming towards you. I can vouch for that also.

The Mortimer has quite a thick muzzle so I don't recommend filing across the muzzle. However, if you wish to adjust the muzzle you can increase the bevel of the crown. In your case if you desire the pattern to come down some first look at the bore bead up. We can call the bead up 12oclock. So from 12oclock increase the crown/bevelling to 3oclock and opposite down towards 9oclock but gradually reducing to nothing removed the closer you get to 3&9oclock....go test....when you're done polish the job well to aid against rusting and aid future polishing in case of tarnishing.
The whole principal revolves around letting the gasses escape a fraction earlier on one side of the circumference.
Somehow this seems to steer the shot column in the opposite direction from the relieving work.
In the Mortimer's thick barrel a dremal type tool could do the initial work. Finish after testing.

Report back please.

B.

Britt, the OP said his pattern was low, then you gave instructions to lower his pattern. Or did i read it wrong?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Britt, the OP said his pattern was low, then you gave instructions to lower his pattern. Or did i read it wrong?

I have indeed instructed wrong!
My apologies. I'm getting clumsy!
The instructions should be reversed. I am 180° out.
Thank you Terry.

B.