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Should I use BP if available?
- Thread starter bill-e
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bill-e said:
If corrosion is a worry use BP, it is far less corrosive. This is easily proven with some testing on polished and degreased steel bars.
Under 30% humidity BP fouling is nearly non-corrosive.
Some will claim otherwise but generally they simply will not see the pits or do not look or do not recognize them for what they are initially.
The two replica powders mentioned above have high levels of potassium perchlorate which produces very aggressive (compared to BP) fouling.
Dan
Mark Lewis said:
Having worked in the BP field as a professional for a number of years 20+ total and having examined a large number of both breech and muzzleloading firearms I can assure you this is not the case.
As I stated even the simplest of tests will prove the above statement is not correct.
Polish a 10"x 1" steel bar to 220-400 grit.
Degrease with acetone or alcohol and allow to dry completely.
Cover one end to protect against cross contamination and flash 20-30 grains of BP on the "open" end.
Cover the BP fouling and burn a similar volume of Pyrodex on the other.
Now place it in some out of the way dry place, no contact with water other than the air. A book shelf or out in the shop/garage perhaps and check it every week for a month. Then come back and we will have this discussion again.
In high humidity there will be some corrosion on the BP side. Tested in low humidity the BP will only produce a slight black stain. The perchlorate powder will raise rust that will easily abrade or even cut the skin in 3-4 weeks even at low humidity.
Potassium Perchlorate will actually eat "crawdad" holes in barrels and breeches. This came, years ago, from a friend who studies such things and just in the past month from a post ON THIS SITE in a discussion YOU were a party to quoting the German National proof house stating the same thing.
BP will not do this. In fact under an oil film cut off from moisture BP is nearly inert.
The makers of Pyrodex have stated in a major publication some years back that ANY liquid put on the fouling will activate it and it MUST be immediately cleaned from the firearm.
This in response to a letter to the editor from a reader who ruined a barrel overnight with Pyrodex.
This appeared in either Rifle or Handloader a few years after Pyrodex was introduced.
777 has about 1/2 the potassium perchlorate found in Pyrodex and is ranks about 1/2 way between Pyrodex and BP is ACTUAL TESTS.
As I have advised others you need to look into the muzzle of a gun well used with these products with some magnification and see what is there. I have universally found micro pitting. If the barrel was originally hot tank blued it is common or the bluing to be gone. BP does not have this effect with normal use and cleaning cycles.
I have numerous rifles that I have shot for DECADES with BP and they have no such pits.
The experienced eye can detect Potassium perchlorate pitting at a glance in most cases.
BP fouling rusts barrels by holding moisture on the steel much as salt works. Potassium Perchlorate fouling will hold moisture AND chemically attack the steel. It needs no moisture to be active.
The pitting can occur with no rusting being apparent.
The fouling traps found in nearly all the factory made cheapo MLs are generally the source of the "crawdad holes".
Dan
It is the chlorine that is the problem. The company I work for builds a lot of equipment for the nuclear industry and we have not been allowed to use any chlorinated solvents or cutting fluids for 25+ years because it attacks the surface and causes micro-fractures to develope making the equipment more prone to catastrophic failure. The pressures involved are measured in inches of water gauge rather than the thousands of pounds at which firearms are working This is with various stainless steel alloys and some of them are pretty exotic. Imagine what it is doing to your iron/carbon steel barrel.
You guys just kill me.....Crawdad holes :wink:
Clean said metal plate with Windex an hour after you flash the powders, and coat it with Break Free CLP. Keep checking it.........
Some subs may be a little harder to clean up, but they won't hurt anything at all. You can't use clorinated solvents because they make crawdad holes in the ozone layer.........supposedly.
Clean said metal plate with Windex an hour after you flash the powders, and coat it with Break Free CLP. Keep checking it.........
Some subs may be a little harder to clean up, but they won't hurt anything at all. You can't use clorinated solvents because they make crawdad holes in the ozone layer.........supposedly.
paulvallandigham
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Dan: Mr. Lewis is not going to change his mind about anything no matter how much science you put in front of him. Don't waste your breathe. If you ignore him long enough, he goes away again.
You are correct about the more corrosive nature of the Subs, including Mr. Lewis' favorite Triple Seven. He apparently has NO background in chemistry, so he can understand how compounds breakdown when burned, and the residue forms new compounds and acids, that eat the heck out of steel.
Perchlorate(ClO4) is a member of the Chlorine family, and when burned, does yield up atoms of Chloride which combine with H2O to form Perchloric acid(HClO4). There are also some nitrates in these compounds( as in BP) which when burned, help form Nitric acids(HNO3). These are the two acids in the subs that eat barrels.
BP has Sulfur in it, to control the rate at which Potassium Nitrate burns, and that sulfur becomes Sulfuric Acid(H2SO4) when its burned in the presence of any humidity. You also get Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S) fumes, which is the " Rotten Eggs" odor that is so offensive to some people.
Acids rust barrels when the extra Oxygen atoms combine with iron atoms, to for Ferric Oxide( rust)( FeO3). Since Ferric Oxide forms at air temperatures and does not require heat, rust quickly forms in the presence of the acids in both Black Powder residue, and the substitute powder residue. When we Rust Brown or Rust Blue gun barrels and parts, we use mild acids to create ferric oxides on the surface. This whole process should not be difficult to understand for most muzzle loading shooters.
These are the reasons that both BP and the subs need to be cleaned out of barrels when you finish shooting, and there is NO skipping this " chore" without seeing damage down to your gun. WHEN CLERKS IN STORES TELL CUSTOMERS THEY DON'T HAVE TO CLEAN ZIP GUNS SHOOTING THE SUB POWDERS, LIKE YOU DO BLACK POWDER, THEY ARE LYING!
At least, Mr. Lewis has never made any such representation here. He is a believer in cleaning your guns. He simply doesn't believe that subs can eat barrels. He is wrong, but he is not going to change his opinion, and we are likely to hear him repeat it many times here, again and again, anytime the issue comes up.
People who have left moisture get into the cans that hold the substitutes report that not only does the powder lose strength, but that corrosion on the inside of the powder cans is observed. I offer that additional information for those who might be interested in the science of "rusting".
You are correct about the more corrosive nature of the Subs, including Mr. Lewis' favorite Triple Seven. He apparently has NO background in chemistry, so he can understand how compounds breakdown when burned, and the residue forms new compounds and acids, that eat the heck out of steel.
Perchlorate(ClO4) is a member of the Chlorine family, and when burned, does yield up atoms of Chloride which combine with H2O to form Perchloric acid(HClO4). There are also some nitrates in these compounds( as in BP) which when burned, help form Nitric acids(HNO3). These are the two acids in the subs that eat barrels.
BP has Sulfur in it, to control the rate at which Potassium Nitrate burns, and that sulfur becomes Sulfuric Acid(H2SO4) when its burned in the presence of any humidity. You also get Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S) fumes, which is the " Rotten Eggs" odor that is so offensive to some people.
Acids rust barrels when the extra Oxygen atoms combine with iron atoms, to for Ferric Oxide( rust)( FeO3). Since Ferric Oxide forms at air temperatures and does not require heat, rust quickly forms in the presence of the acids in both Black Powder residue, and the substitute powder residue. When we Rust Brown or Rust Blue gun barrels and parts, we use mild acids to create ferric oxides on the surface. This whole process should not be difficult to understand for most muzzle loading shooters.
These are the reasons that both BP and the subs need to be cleaned out of barrels when you finish shooting, and there is NO skipping this " chore" without seeing damage down to your gun. WHEN CLERKS IN STORES TELL CUSTOMERS THEY DON'T HAVE TO CLEAN ZIP GUNS SHOOTING THE SUB POWDERS, LIKE YOU DO BLACK POWDER, THEY ARE LYING!
At least, Mr. Lewis has never made any such representation here. He is a believer in cleaning your guns. He simply doesn't believe that subs can eat barrels. He is wrong, but he is not going to change his opinion, and we are likely to hear him repeat it many times here, again and again, anytime the issue comes up.
People who have left moisture get into the cans that hold the substitutes report that not only does the powder lose strength, but that corrosion on the inside of the powder cans is observed. I offer that additional information for those who might be interested in the science of "rusting".
Having built & shot muzzleloaders & having worked on aircraft, government contracts, and in machine shops, since 1975 I can assure you that I will not change my mind on the subject.
777 is not my favorite, & I prefer Goex 3F when it's available. 777 will go bad if you gets it damp. For the average shooter, Pyrodex is exactly like blackpower in every way except that it requires a hotter spark to ignite it. Hence it won't work in flintlocks very well.
It's ok for folks to say "I don't like the subs because to me they aren't traditional." I buy the subs to use in guns that can handle them, to save money and to keep from using my Goex except when I need it. It's hard to get, & I expect it may become impossible to get. That's why I use it spareingly.
777 is not my favorite, & I prefer Goex 3F when it's available. 777 will go bad if you gets it damp. For the average shooter, Pyrodex is exactly like blackpower in every way except that it requires a hotter spark to ignite it. Hence it won't work in flintlocks very well.
It's ok for folks to say "I don't like the subs because to me they aren't traditional." I buy the subs to use in guns that can handle them, to save money and to keep from using my Goex except when I need it. It's hard to get, & I expect it may become impossible to get. That's why I use it spareingly.
I think if Windex would have solved the problem with micro-fractures the NRC would not have banned the use of Tap Magic among other chlorinated solvents for nuclear equipment construction. The "Crawdad holes in the Ozone" was only a secondary concern for them. You can protect yourself from the UV rays but Gamma rays from Plutonium are hard to hide from. They'll make your skin and hair slough off in short order.
I just came back from the local gun shop and got most of what I need but both shops and Walmart are mostly out of accessories cuz it's off season.
Anyway, the old guy at the shop where I bought my stuff really wanted me to buy American Pioneer as he claims that it doesn't corrode like BP does. I stood firm and bought a can of Goex 3fg though
Interesting how adamant he was, claiming that he'd been shooting BP for 35 years of so and he switched to American Pioneer for his pistols because it shoots so clean.
Couldn't get #10 caps or lubed wads either...everyone was out so I will be pinching the #11 CVA caps.
Anyway, the old guy at the shop where I bought my stuff really wanted me to buy American Pioneer as he claims that it doesn't corrode like BP does. I stood firm and bought a can of Goex 3fg though
Interesting how adamant he was, claiming that he'd been shooting BP for 35 years of so and he switched to American Pioneer for his pistols because it shoots so clean.
Couldn't get #10 caps or lubed wads either...everyone was out so I will be pinching the #11 CVA caps.
paulvallandigham
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Bill-e: This is why we have a links section up at the top of the index page for this forum. It will take you to a long list of suppliers, where you can order anything you need and have them shipped to your door. What you spent in gas traveling around looking for stuff will be more than what it costs to ship everything to you. And, the companies generally have on-line catalogs to peruse. Almost all have 800 numbers you can call, toll free, to talk to them to see that they have what you want in stock, that it is the correct component for your gun, and generally consult about any problem you may have with any product they sent you. Percussion caps required the same Haz Mat fee that black powder does to ship, so order the caps in quantity from the same source as you order powder from. Find other shooters to go together with to buy the powder can caps by large volume to spread the Haz Mat fee over lots of items.
My brother has been trying to organize a BP club S. of Tallahassee Florida, and to help the members out, he took orders from powder, and ordered a full case of powder from Powder, Inc. Apparently, caps were still available locally. He saved the guys about 6 dollars per pound of powder over what it would cost locally at retail IF they can find a source.
My brother has been trying to organize a BP club S. of Tallahassee Florida, and to help the members out, he took orders from powder, and ordered a full case of powder from Powder, Inc. Apparently, caps were still available locally. He saved the guys about 6 dollars per pound of powder over what it would cost locally at retail IF they can find a source.
bill-e said:Anyway, the old guy at the shop where I bought my stuff really wanted me to buy American Pioneer as he claims that it doesn't corrode like BP does. I stood firm and bought a can of Goex 3fg though
That's the spirit! :thumbsup:
Paul,
Thanks for the tip on the links and I usually do get most everything I buy via the internet...the UPS guy visits at least twice a week
But in this case, I have two gun shops within a couple of miles of my house and a Walmart in between so my total travel was about 10 miles...much cheaper than the $20 Haz fee for shipping.
I am going to order some wads, a flask and Butch's Bore shine online though as I couldn't get them locally.
My Goex was 16.95.....is that a reasonable price?
Thanks for the tip on the links and I usually do get most everything I buy via the internet...the UPS guy visits at least twice a week
But in this case, I have two gun shops within a couple of miles of my house and a Walmart in between so my total travel was about 10 miles...much cheaper than the $20 Haz fee for shipping.
I am going to order some wads, a flask and Butch's Bore shine online though as I couldn't get them locally.
My Goex was 16.95.....is that a reasonable price?
paulvallandigham
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$16.95 a pound is better than some people are paying at retail, but not as good as a case price, Haz Mat fee included. Remember those retailers are also paying the Haz Mat fee, and that factors into the price they charge you. Just buying your powder from a local retailer does not eliminate the HAZ MAT fee. Only traveling to the distrbibutor, and picking up the powder yourself eliminated that fee.
If I recall McKeal's chart from a month ago, The Cheapest Price for cases of Goex were at Jack's Powder keg at $10.20 per pound. Most are charging about $12.00 per pound delivered. That is almost $5.00 less per pound than you paid. I have no problem supporting local retail gun shops that still carry gear for MLers, and BP in particular. I just think paying that much more for the powder is a bit steep. If I were dealing with the retailer, I would attempt to negotiate a better price if I were wanting to buy 5 lbs, or more at a time. Remember also that the retailer has to pay about $140.00 per year in fees to both the ATFE, and to his state agencies for the licenses he needs to keep the powder available. :thumbsup:
If I recall McKeal's chart from a month ago, The Cheapest Price for cases of Goex were at Jack's Powder keg at $10.20 per pound. Most are charging about $12.00 per pound delivered. That is almost $5.00 less per pound than you paid. I have no problem supporting local retail gun shops that still carry gear for MLers, and BP in particular. I just think paying that much more for the powder is a bit steep. If I were dealing with the retailer, I would attempt to negotiate a better price if I were wanting to buy 5 lbs, or more at a time. Remember also that the retailer has to pay about $140.00 per year in fees to both the ATFE, and to his state agencies for the licenses he needs to keep the powder available. :thumbsup:
paulvallandigham
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Bill: I never have had any retail sports shop around here that carried Black Powder, even before 9/11. IF we wanted powder, we had to drive to Friendship( 4 1/2 hours) or work together with other shooters to order the powder from a distributor in Indiana, who has now retired. I guess you get used to what you have, and deal with changes when they occur. One of the benefits of being a member of my local gun club is being able to buy black powder at discounted prices, when the club sends out an annual order( or more often now) for powder. It never dawned on me that people would not want to join such a club?
Paul, in the last 12 months I've been on the road 42 weeks.....doesn't leave much time for my many, many hobbies
But I have looked up a couple of local clubs (within 30 min drive) and one has a very nice pistol range. I will probably look into it.
Thanks
Bill
But I have looked up a couple of local clubs (within 30 min drive) and one has a very nice pistol range. I will probably look into it.
Thanks
Bill
