Siler Mainspring

[paulvallandigham]

I have seen several old broken hammers on percussion guns, and one broken cock on an older gun. All showed obvious small voids in the metal that contributed to the weakness, and breakage. I have seen at least one broken V-spring where a small void or " bubble " could also be seen it the break. Other broken springs have not shown such obvious problems. A microscope, and a knowledge of both metallurgy, and heat treating specific steels would be needed to figure out why these other springs failed.

I have shared with you what I do to prevent these kind of breaks on future springs, and told you why. Other than locating a qualified lab, like H.P. White, to examine the steel and determine the cause of failure, at some expense, I am out of ideas. You might start at your local state University, talking to the Engineering department staff who teach metallurgy. Good Luck to you. :thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I can't tell from the pictures, but are there any minute notches or file marks running across the spring where it broke? Even a very light scratch can start a break.
I have only the photos left as well. The 1st spring broke at the builder's and I sent the 2nd spring to Jim Chambers to examine.

There's something odd here. As for getting two bad springs so close together, you may have simply gotten two springs from the same lot where the man doing the hardening had a bad day and forgot to draw the temper.
1st spring that broke was produced sometime over 4 years ago when I bought the kit. 2nd spring was sent by the kit manufacturer last October. It would really be odd if these 2 springs came from the same lot.

When I look at the photo of the lock, there does seem to be a shiny area in the center of the plate where the spring would make contact. There also seems to be a shiny spot on the spring where it broke. Could this be an indication that wood in the mortise it pushing the spring and causing it to rub the plate and break?

Finnwolf

Well, I've seen mainsprings rub lockplates before and not break. However, if the spring was too hard and got bound up a little because the wood was pushing against it, that could be the "straw that broke the camel's...I mean mainspring's back". If the spring is properly tempered and it's merely rubbing the wood, it shouldn't break. It should polish or scratch the lock and scrape or polish the wood. Look at the mortise and see if it has been rubbing. If it is, it would be a good idea to trim the wood so it won't bind anyway. I still lean towards untempered springs being the problem. Sometimes things like this slip through.

 

[B.Habermehl]

One thing, Jim Chambers told me along time ago to not compress the mainspring in a spring vise much past the point that it would be at 1/2 cock. Also to apply the vise and remove the spring at 1/2 cock. Spring vises load the spring differently than the lock will. This caused me a bit of spring trouble as you described. The heck of it was I was trained wrong by a highly reputeable builder now deceased. Just a thought....BJH

 

[Finnwolf]

One thing, Jim Chambers told me along time ago to not compress the mainspring in a spring vise much past the point that it would be at 1/2 cock. Also to apply the vise and remove the spring at 1/2 cock. Spring vises load the spring differently than the lock will. This caused me a bit of spring trouble as you described. The heck of it was I was trained wrong by a highly reputeable builder now deceased. Just a thought....BJH

Good suggestion BH, I'll pass it along to the builder as a suggestion. The builder installed the 2 mainsprings that broke. The one I installed has not (yet) broken but has only 2 shots on it.
I'll black the entire reverse of the lock and reinstall it and see if anything transfers to the wood. If it does, I'll deal with that problem and if it doesn't, it points to a defect in the lock.
Finnwolf

 

[Tumblernotch]

Might not be a bad idea, however I have always pulled the hammers/cocks all the way to full cock before putting the clamp on without ever having any problems. I got into that habit with a lock that required setting at full cock to get the spring loose.

 

[Zonie]

Something else to look at on your lock is the location of the nose of the spring and the clearance with the tumblers body.

The extreme end of the mainspring on all of these Siler locks when cocked is Very close to the body of the tumbler.
As you cock the lock this end runs up the spur of the tumbler getting closer and closer to the fillet where the spur meets the body of the tumbler as the hammer is drawn back.

Due to tolerances it is possible for the end of the mainspring to interfere with the fillet where the spur joins the body of the tumbler.
If this happens, a undue stress will be created trying to force the mainspring forward instead of just upward.
That extra force could break the mainspring.

If it looks like the mainspring is hanging up on this spur fillet you could stone a somewhat larger radius on the nose of the mainspring.
That additional clearance might be all that's needed.

If after stoning a larger radius it still looks like the nose of the mainspring is hitting the tumblers body or fillet, lightly grinding the body away in that area could also help.

Yes, this is just a wild guess but my understanding of tolerances on machined and cast parts says that if the wrong combination of tolerances exist at one time problems can result.
In this case, if the hole that locates the mainsprings pin were just slightly too close to the hole that locates the tumbler added to a large tumbler body diameter added to a large fillet radius where the spur meets the tumbler body added to a slightly undersize corner break on the mainspring could result in a severe interference at that point.

 

[Finnwolf]

Hi Zonie,
Thanks a lot for your advice but much of what you've said is over my head - a bit too technical. But nice of you to try to help.

As soon as I get some time, I'm going to lamp black the entire rear of the lock, reinstall it and see if the black transfers to any wood. I can remove tiny amounts of wood from the mortise with a chisel - that is within my skills. But when it comes to grinding parts on the lock - that is a little out of my comfort zone.

Hopefully, Chambers can take care of any lock defects.

Finnwolf

 

[David W.]

Hi Zonie,
Thanks a lot for your advice but much of what you've said is over my head - a bit too technical. But nice of you to try to help.

As soon as I get some time, I'm going to lamp black the entire rear of the lock, reinstall it and see if the black transfers to any wood. I can remove tiny amounts of wood from the mortise with a chisel - that is within my skills. But when it comes to grinding parts on the lock - that is a little out of my comfort zone.

Hopefully, Chambers can take care of any lock defects.

Finnwolf

Please let us know the results. I am still a little stuck on the "temper theory", I could be wrong, but where it is breaking is the high stress area of the spring. Although the pictures pixelated when I tried to enlarge them, it looks like a clean break which indicates very hard steel. It would be nice to have a hardness test on performed the broken spring to see what the rockwell hardness really is.

 

[Finnwolf]

Please let us know the results. I am still a little stuck on the "temper theory", I could be wrong, but where it is breaking is the high stress area of the spring. Although the pictures pixelated when I tried to enlarge them, it looks like a clean break which indicates very hard steel. It would be nice to have a hardness test on performed the broken spring to see what the rockwell hardness really is.

Chambers has the 2nd broken spring and he's already said by email that he would not be able to perform a hardness test - too expensive for such a rare occurence.
The 1st broken spring is either in the possession of the builder, the kit maker, Chambers or in the trash.
The one I saw, the 2nd one, looked like a clean break to me as well. If this indicates proper hardening, then it's another reason to suspect the lock may be defective. All I can do is black the lock and see if there's a transfer of black to the mortise wood.
Finnwolf

 

[rootsy]

If you are dealing on a daily basis with outside heat treated components then either those components better come in with a certification from the supplier or you better have a way to verify that the heat treat and temper were done properly. In most cases both. It is your responsibility (the mfg that is).

Testing hardness is pretty friggin easy with the proper equipment... Isn't expensive either...

So either that part was improperly heat treated and tempered... Or possibly the spring is being unloaded and loaded in a shock type manner where upon firing it is not keeping up with the tumbler and then is bouncing. Or possibly it is being pinched.

This reminds me I have to give Chambers a call... My Round Faced English tumbler looks like it was finished with a hack saw... The lock plate is not flat and I can cut the sear arm with a file... That's as far as I've gotten...

 

[barbie]

Wow, I don't quite know where to start here....

1) Springs break. Casting flaws, improper care, improper tuning, wood interference, whatever, springs break. That is why we offer a lifetime warranty on them. Most of the time folks don't ever have to use this warranty, especially on the smaller locks like the Silers, but occasionally it happens. As Dad stated to Finnwolf have two break is very rare, but it can happen.

2) As was also stated to him, without us being metallurgists and having high dollar metal testing equipment to run tests on the springs that broke we CAN NOT give any further explanation without seeing the lock and cycling it. It's not a trade secret we are trying to keep here, we just can't tell. Not to mention, it's a free replacement if it breaks, keep a spare in your shooting box and if/when one breaks you have an extra and can keep shooting while we send a new one back to you.

3) For all of you that want to jump on the 'it's not tempered correctly' - since we heat treat in batches of 200-400 at a time then we should be getting back 200-400 broken springs. Haven't seen them. Now since we did not build this particular lock it is possible that the springs were ground or worked in a way that changed them, but from looking at the one broken spring we saw nothing to indicate any problems.

4) We have offered to work on this lock - period. Without being given the opportunity to see it, check is architecture, and cycle it we can do nothing more than what all of you have done on the thread - speculate! And yet, here I am having to make a post when I can not answer it any better than we did over email because we have yet to see the lock.

I like Zonie's post about it possibly riding up into the tumbler shaft, that could be a possibility and something that we could notice if we'd been given the chance to look at the lock.

Please understand with what I am about to say is not meant to sound bad, but is going to be stated as what I deem the truth - grain of salt included.

Finnwolf's problem is he's had two main springs break over a 5 year time frame. He wants to know why, and yet has stated himself that he can not understand much of the technical information Zonie suggested nor will he send the lock in for inspection. So what exactly is being asked here? NONE of us can tell him a correct answer without having all the parts in front of us, inspecting both broken springs and cycling the current lock for technical problems. Seems to me this thread can do no more than serve as a complaint session.

Finnwolf, if you want to have trust in your lock, then have enough trust in the designer to send it back and let us look at it. We want nothing more than to have satisfied customers - please give us the opportunity to make you one.

 

[barbie]

This reminds me I have to give Chambers a call... My Round Faced English tumbler looks like it was finished with a hack saw... The lock plate is not flat and I can cut the sear arm with a file... That's as far as I've gotten...

:cursing: Why is folks are so quick to bash our products before giving us a chance to fix what ever it is that they don't like? We work our tails off to make a high quality product that people will like and enjoy using. If something goes wrong we try to do whatever it takes to fix it.

And yet, you get people like ROOSTY here who are so eager to bash us, put us in the ground and rub S#@t on us. I DO NOT understand the need to treat other people like this. When I have a problem I go to the source and work it out. I don't go and tell everyone what a piece of trash I got unless the company is unwilling to even look at it or knowingly is selling a bad product and refuses to refrain.

If that lock has so many problems already and is such trash then just send it back, I'll give you every dime you got in back including the shipping. That way you can go and get a better lock from anyone else because obviously our products are not worth having and our efforts to be good people and give the best customer service we can is a total waste of time.

Perhaps I should start having all our locks built in China and all our phone calls routed to India. Then this kind of talk could surely be warranted.

 

[rootsy]

I apologize, I should not have written anything publicly about my concerns with this lock without first contacting you. "hacksaw" is a pretty gritty term to use. You have every right to give me what I deserve for that.

BTW, this is the first one of your locks I have ever had a concern with. Everything previously have been very nice. I did not purchase this one directly from you but a 3rd party supplier. Not sure if that makes a hill of beans difference or not.

Jamie

 

[barbie]

Thank you Rootsy. I truely appreciate your apology! Please know that we'd be happy to work on what ever the problems are that you have and if it's been hit with a hacksaw, I'd like to know when you got the lock so I know which builder I need to go beat! :wink:

 

[Birddog6]

Barbie, I think ya should beat the manure out of several of them on here. :wink: :grin:

You guys make Wonderful locks & furnish Great products & are always a pleasure to deal with. :thumbsup: IMHO, you guys are Top Dog in the lock business, have been for a long time & are still up on the top of my list !! :thumbsup:

 

[barbie]

Thanks Birddog! I would beat them more often, but I think some of them are beginning to enjoy it! :grin: :haha: :nono:

 

[Dane]

Barbie,

I hope with all the beatin' going on, I'm not the one to be beat.

I built that gun, and have offered to take a look at it to assure that there is nothing in the mortise that is causing this grief.

I checked it when the first one broke, and didn't find any problems, but wood is kind of a fluid thing like we all know, and some swelling could have taken place. (AZ to PA) (No humidity change there??)

Any way, with all the stir this has caused, I hope I'm not the bad guy.
But, If I am, I'll fix it, AND take the beating.

Dane

 

[Finnwolf]

Barbie,

Any way, with all the stir this has caused, I hope I'm not the bad guy.
But, If I am, I'll fix it, AND take the beating.

Dane

OK, back up the truck! I opened this thread with the statement that I wanted to step on no ones toes, that this is a quality product and everyone from the lock maker to the kit maker to the builder is standing by it! I have not cast asperions on anyone or anything or called anyone's honor into question!!!
:bull:

If you people would have read the entire thread you'd have seen this. I am simply trying to find out why a quality Siler lock has broken 2 mainsprings within the first 25 shots on it's life. It may be 5 years old, Barbie but it was just put in a rifle and started being used the last few months. This work was done by a professional and I know how to take care of a rifle! Been doing it for 20 years! More :bull:

Barbie, you said that Chambers did not make this lock - then who did? Jim offered to cycle this lock and I may eventually take him up on it. If I send him the lock, I won't have the rifle to shoot while he has it - how long will that be? Conversely, if I lamp black the lock and check the mortise for extra wood, I may be able to solve the problem right here without sending the lock to VA or the whole gun to AZ.
With you all scrambling so hard for cover, I'm not going to be trampled and come off as the bad guy here when I have tried to act in a completely honorabe way.

Yes, I've lost a little faith in the rifle because it failed me in a very critical hunting situation, which is the very reason why I don't have any production flinters anymore.

Finnwolf

 

[Tumblernotch]

"""3) For all of you that want to jump on the 'it's not tempered correctly' - since we heat treat in batches of 200-400 at a time then we should be getting back 200-400 broken springs. Haven't seen them. Now since we did not build this particular lock it is possible that the springs were ground or worked in a way that changed them, but from looking at the one broken spring we saw nothing to indicate any problems."""

I did say that there could be a tempering problem here, but that could actually be an occasional piece of bad steel. That would be out of your control and unless you stress test each spring before you sell it, you would never know until you got it back. I don't think I was casting aspersions on your shop. We all get something once in a while that seems perfect yet fails prematurely. I happen to know that your shop has a great record for quality parts and deservedly so. Yet, even the best can have a clinker slip by once in a while.

 

[Dave K]

What can I say, but send it back! Send the gun to the builder, or send the lock to Chambers, but do something besides wondering how long it will be out of your hands. Are you hunting with the gun now? Why, would you if you don't trust it or it is broke now anyhow. Do you have a big shoot to attend? I wouldn't go with a gun I don't trust. Now, so far I have never had a problem with a Chambers lock, not one problem. But, it can happen and they have the right to know about it and they will make it right. But, you need to follow what the makers of your gun or lock is telling you.

I did have a problem with another lock brand and during the gun season and it happened on the very first time I cocked the gun on that hunt. I called the manufacture of that lock and they said to send it in and they would have it back to me as soon as they could. They said they would probably send it back to me the day they recieved it. I needed that gun, or I was going to hunt with my 40cal. That lock was back in my hands in 5 days, start to finish. I then went and killed the deer with that lock/gun you may have seen in the hunting pictures. It cost me about $4.95 in a flat rate box. When I killed that deer, in the next 2days, I sent them a well deserved thank you and pictures of the gun/lock and deer. My cost to fix it, only the shipping to them. What can I say, but I am very happy about it all.

You know what happens if you do nothing? Nothing!!! That is why you need to get that lock or gun in a box and SHIP IT. To be fair with all involved, good questions are good, but problems that can't be resolved by the posters lack of action, makes it darn hard to blame anyone but one person.

I am sure I am sounding very hard on you and for that I appologize, but we also have to think of others that are hurt by not following the advice given. :surrender: